Anti-Stalling

[VikingKoala]

Has the anti-stalling function been removed?

Is it no longer that when you pass three times, a game can be decided by a server decision to avoid stalling?

[Uberdude]

There were more conditions than just pass 3 times: it had to be after move 180 (for 19×19) and winrate over some high threshold. Were those satisfied in the case you presumably saw it not trigger?

There has been discussion of adding more conditions, so perhaps those have recently been implemented.

[shinuito]

I suppose the first check is “should it have been available in the game you played?”

@anoek

Now, if the game is reasonably far along (specifically width * height / 3 width * height / 2 moves into the game, so move 180+ for a 19x19 match), and you have passed 3 times in a row, the server will ask KataGo for who it thinks is the winner of the game. If KataGo is at least 99% sure that one of the players has won by more than 10 points, we present the option to end the game in favor of whoever KataGo thinks is going to win:

If it should’ve, there’s always a small chance there was a server issue. Sometimes there’s issues with calling Katago or other outages. It can happen in the scoring phase.

I guess if it’s none of those, and since a number of people have asked to change how it works, it could’ve changed. We’ll just need someone to confirm

[GreenAsJade]

I think nothing has changed - I can’t see any changes like this in logs.

[VikingKoala]

I see that I unintentionally was almost sandbagging because I did not want to continue a game where I am over 30 points ahead and the other player makes an invasion which could live after I passed three times although it would not change who will win the game

[Uberdude]

Probably you weren’t winning 99% after the 3 passes and it lived then. That’s the risk of playing the OGS triple-pass Go variant! OGS invents new Go variant!

If you are ahead and past move 120*, rather than playing moves to try to win, you can take a gamble and pass: if your opponent doesn’t have a ko threat type move big enough to drop your lead below a KataGo estimate of 99% after you pass following the ko threat, they follow up on the threat and you pass again, then you win. But be warned, if you are still winning after the 3 passes, but only 95%, you don’t win and have to keep playing

*180 now

[VikingKoala]

The invading group is not alive yet. It is only not unconditionally dead, and after passing three times, I had to play a move to fix a weakness that would be problematic after giving my opponent three free moves. I just assumed that my opponent would take the hint that he should pass when I have passed three times and he has neither managed to make a live group nor kill my group by his invasion. I am kind of beginning to feel sympathetic to people who resign despite that they are winning because of frustrating stalling.

[Uberdude]

@VikingKoala

The invading group is not alive yet. It is only not unconditionally dead, and after passing three times, I had to play a move to fix a weakness that would be problematic after giving my opponent three free moves.

You being less than 99% winning by KataGo sounds very plausible then.

@VikingKoala

I just assumed that my opponent would take the hint that he should pass when I have passed three times

Good thing he didn’t. It is silly to pass when a game is unfinished because it is a declaration that there are no valuable moves left and that all groups are settled and all territories are completed sealed and the game is ready for counting. Indeed your passing in the middle of a game is also silly, and bad behaviour which is encouraged by this new OGS triple-pass go variant now in effect.

@VikingKoala

I am kind of beginning to feel sympathetic to people who resign despite that they are winning because of frustrating stalling.

Is he stalling, or just not-resigning-when-he-is-losing? (both can be frustrating, but I believe the server policies/features should only prohibit/prevent/punish the former)

[Animiral]

The anti-stalling feature is a nice tool that gives some power into your hands, but its safeguards can be a bit strict.

Another option that you have at your disposal is the report button. Stalling is not welcome on OGS, if it gets to the point where they are legitimately not threatening anything and just waste your time.

The report will be handled by moderators, who also take the skill level and time settings etc into account. Even your frustrated resignation loss can be annulled.

[VikingKoala]

I did not resign although I considered it. I now reported my opponent to the moderators. His invasion died despite the fact that I passed like five times during the invasion.

[Uberdude]

Your certainty that your opponent was dead after every pass is misplaced.

If you want to encourage your opponent to resign in such circumstances, I would recommend not passing but making it abundantly clear that it is dead, rather than offering them hope that you might make a mistake in future and let it live, or die yourself.

[VikingKoala]

In the end I had enough of the stalling and resign since the moderators did not react.

[Uberdude]

So now your can look at the AI review graph and see when your opponent could have lived and won the game because of your cocky passing.

[VikingKoala]

I see that the first two times I passed I had a win rate of over 99 % but when I passed the third time my opponent could theoretically live although he didn’t. Then I made sure that he could not live but he invaded another territory where he could not live unless I passed repeatedly and then I resigned because I could not take the stalling any more. I see that my win rate after resignation is still 99,7%. Perhaps it would be better if it was like on Fox or IGS (I do not remember which) where you can force a server decision after passing twice to avoid stalling.

[GreenAsJade]

@VikingKoala

In the end I had enough of the stalling and resign since the moderators did not react.

Too impatient. That report is still in the voting queue, it’s only been open for 17 hours as I type. That’s barely half a turn.

[VikingKoala]

Then it would be better to have it as it is like on Fox or IGS where you can force a server decision after two passes. The problem with three passes as it is here is that the opponent has then the opportunity to change the win rate enough so that no server decision becomes possible and then you will have to waste almost a week more to play unnecessary moves or you will simply have to resign to avoid this waste of time.

[GreenAsJade]

LOL you should add this opinion to the current debate, in the proper thread.

A nice contrast to the opinions that say “we should not have this feature at all”

[VikingKoala]

I have done that now because it frustrates me the way it is that you cannot force a server decision early enough so instead you have either to resign or waste days on a game that should have ended 50+ moves ago. Fox and IGS are much better at preventing stalling than OGS

[benjito]

I’ve never used it, but Tygem has an AI judgement button that seems to require no passing. It also says it only works after the game is ended (a condition that some have asked for w.r.t. OGS’s anti-stalling)

[VikingKoala]

It is the same with either FOX or IGS. One has the option of forcing server decision after two passes and the other has a similar solution like Tygem.