Apparent bug in reporting rank


#1

I call this an “apparent bug” because it has been reported before and always turns out not to be a bug, but desired behavior. But I find it annoying, myself, and not at all desired.

I like to play “live” 10-minute 9x9 games here. They fit my attention span nicely.

Today I played with mikefitz999. This was exciting, because he is 9k.

Except, once we had a chance to exchange greetings, it turned out that his true rank, shown as a tiny subscript to his name, was 16k.

Just to be sure you see my confusion, this means that at the time the challenge was made and accepted, the rank he or she appeared to be was 7 ranks in error due to the kind of game speed (live) that we were playing.

Any comments other than the usual “this is desired behavior”?


#2

The only comment I have is i’m unsure as to why you can’t accept that this is what was wanted. They wanted four separate ranks because different time settings effect a persons rank.

Maybe not to the extreme like 7 stones but it does effect their rank. I for myself know im stronger on correspondence than i am live and i suck at blitz. I would say im 2-3 stones weaker in blitz

but i believe ideas have been floating around from moderators about a change they want to try, I think it was @crodgers but ill also ping @anoek and @matburt our two OGS admins


#3

Okay, I understand that most players want four different ranks. I want them too, but please explain why you want an incorrect rank reported during challenges?


#4

People wouldn’t but it when one person doesn’t play a certain time setting their rank cant move up or down for that time setting but like i said i think they are going to improve on it. Along with the other patches they have fixed for the big update.

Another thing i would liked fixed is restrict ranks and how both timesettting and overall rank are taken into account when letting someone join in my opinion it should be timesetting rank only that it counts for restrict rank


#5

Stating it as “incorrect” is an opinion. It’s correct for that type of game. Seeing both time-based and overall would be helpful, sure, and there can be improvements made, but it’s not strictly speaking incorrect. (Well, insofar as any rank can be truly “correct”.)


#6

Why do you keep insisting that 9k is the correct rank, when the person was actually rated 17k for the type of game specified in the challenge? What you say simply makes no sense to me. Please explain better, so I can understand.


#7

Dude, the chat rank is the overall rank, not time-based.


#8

9kyu is the correct rank because that is their overall rank, which is based off of all games you’ve played it’s not an average of your 3 time speed ranks.

lets say each win is worth 1 point to make this example easy

For example if you play 3 games 1 correspondence, 1 blitz, 1 live and you win them all then your overall rank goes up by 3 points the other ranks go up by 1 point.

The rank in the box in the top right corner is their time setting rank for that time setting, the rank shown in chat when they talk is their overall rank.


#9

Dude, “overall rank” has no obvious meaning. There is no way to challenge someone for an “overall game”. Unless I am wrong, and I’m not.

There is some big gap in understanding here. I call this a BIG error, an error in 7 ranks. You actually want to see this error, this “overall” rank, that has nothing at all to do with the playing ability for the challenged game type?

Dude?


#10

If someone doesn’t play a time setting often thats when the gap shows, the overall rank is the correct rank though. i don’t think its that hard to understand really


#11

I already wrote above that I play mostly Live games, and I explained why. I have no interest in an overall score, since I do not play overall games. Please explain why you want to see this incorrect Overall score, which is 7 ranks in error. This is the second time I am asking you to explain this.


#12

Just because you only play live games doesnt mean everyone else does. Just because you have no interest in something doesnt mean other people don’t. That sounds a little egotistical tbh


#13

Having just looked at their profile your opponent set their rank as 5kyu initially, while they clearly aren’t that strong and have gone downward to 15kyu so their correct rank “Overall rank” is 15kyu

the game you played with them was blitz so in the top it is showing their blitz rating, which is clearly wrong since they set their rank to high in the beginning but seeing as how the don’t play blitz their rank isnt able to adjust.


#14

I’m astonished at the accusation. Do others here agree that my postings are egotistical?

It is egotistical that I play only live games here?

It is egotistical that I ask for the correct rank for the kind of game I want to play?

I think you may have crossed the line into incivility.


#15

Only the last post seemed egotistical to me, the other posts were all fine.

EDIT: from my point of view it sounded like you saying “since i have no use/interest in it. It shouldnt be used i don’t want to see it”


#16

But again and this is the third time im saying this, I believe the DEVELOPERS are going to make adjustments to it, although when people are setting their rank wrong in the beginning it is up to the players like us to report them to a mod for them to get a rank change


#17

David, you’re basically stating “This is how I use the site, so I want it to reflect that interest instead of attempting to service a broad range of players.”

Now, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of “overall rank”. It is not an average. It is calculated as an individual time-setting rank, effectively. So, it’s accurate whether or not you play one time setting or all time settings, your overall rank is calculated against your opponent’s overall rank. It should pretty closely match the time-specific ranks. Sometimes it doesn’t, but that’s something the devs are working on, as HowToPlay mentioned.

Here’s an example. You play only live games, and you play someone in a live game who has never played one before; they’ve always played correspondence. You’ll see each other’s overall ranks, let’s say 10k, and also your time-based ranks. Let’s say yours is also 10k, but your opponent’s is still 25k. Ideally, this should have been corrected to be close to their overall rank, but that’s not the point. If you win, your overall rank will have a victory over a 10k opponent factored in. Your live rank, however, will only have a victory over a 25k opponent factored in, meaning it will rise slower than accurate. Likewise, a loss would affect your live ranking far more severely than your oveall ranking.

This is the compromise the devs have gone with, and seems to do a good job, all things considered. Sure, you’ll get some odd games every once in a while, but ranking is a hard problem, and one that’s still being worked on.

Regardless, “wrong” and “wrong for me” are different things.


#18

there is only one rank - 19x19 and everything else should be based on this.
If you have <5 ranked games on 19x, your have no rank - all you got is this number you used to register (add “?” or * to it, so it’s clear)

if you get your rank, lets say it’s 10 and you play your first X ranked 9x9 your rank calculations should start from 10 and adjust accordingly and not based on some arbitrary number you picked yourself Y moths ago that has nothing to do with your real current rank (10) in OGS.

Same with correspondence and 13x games. Your rand should not start drifting away from you 19x19 rank (real rank) before you have plaid X ranked games in that category. If you stop, it should start drifting toward your real rank (19x) and over time (few moths?) become equal to it.

Example:

User A signs up and thinks he is 10, after 5 normal ranked games, his rank has fallen to 18k.
His 10k? becomes 18k

4 moths down the road he starts the first correspondence © game. His real rank has gone up to 14 and this is the rank he get in his first C game. Not 10? or 18 or something between.

Lets say he keeps developing and becomes 5k and decides to have a fist ranked 9x9 game. He starts out with 5k, not 10? or 18 or 14k!

Problem is that other ranks are currently not adjusted to your real rank.

If you have no ranked games in 9x, 13x etc, your rank should be same as your normal 19x rank.


#19

Well, yes, sorry :smiley:

No, you are free to play whatever games you like, but writing things like: “I play mostly Live games, and I explained why. I have no interest in an overall score” can be very well percieved as egotistical. If you read that again, you might find that it just feels like you want this feature gone, because YOU don’t use it. I am sure it is not what you meant, but it is the overall feeling I get from it.

Jesus, don’t get triggered :smiley:

That said, sure, I think most people will agree that the system could benefit from some adjustments and I am quite sure developers are aware of it. However, overall I think having separate ranks is a great idea, they just should not be able to spread over such a large gap. Maybe give an idea on how to improve it rather than just repeating that it is not good for you.

And now I am going to be a little anoying, but I am quite sure you started the EXACT same thread here already a while ago. Also if I am not mistaken you said there that you would not push the isssue further because you’ve had your say and see no benefit in pursuing the issue since almost nobody agreed it was a bug. So why start the exact same thread all over? If you replied to the original one (if you think there is something new to discuss) it will pop right up and everyone can see the discussion we already had and can make a better picture of all the ideas and opinions… I don’t get this… Or maybe my memory is failing me and it was about something else, feel free to correct me if that’s the case and I shall send my appologies right after.


#20

There is no real, nor absolute rank.

A rank is always relative to the population (of a server, country or some other collection of players) and some other arbitrary attributes (e. g. initial parameter, certain subset of games, history, probability etc.).

However, I agree that the current state on OGS is confusing.
At the very least, the time-based rank should be reflected on challenges. For example: on a blitz challenge it should be obvious that this or that player is ranked x on blitz and y overall.

I think that the OGS multirank system is somewhere between using one rank (the overall one) and fully endorsing the multirank.