Are you worried about coronavirus?

Here the government isn’t gonna help financially people or businesses so we’re screwed economically (too).

Could be worse … the government here is trying to help which has resulted to chaos. :sunglasses:

Measure a) Some categories of people and companies will pay less rent for a couple of months
Chaos ensues to determine which exact people are included in this measure and what will happen with the people that actually rely on colleting those rents to make ends meet! The government effectively is setting up the owners and the people that rent the buildings to squabble amongst each other.

Measure b) Some categories of employees and companies will receive some monetary help. Others won’t. Chaos ensues because the process is convoluted and the categories keep changing.

  • First the employer has to make an application to declare that he was closed due to the government’s measures and declare which employees they had. (the government knows who those are since they ordered it, but they want us to re-submit the data)
  • Now the employees have to declare that they actually worked on a company that closed down (the government has that data, but they want us to re-submit them anyway). Cherry on top? Depending on the last figure of your tax ID you can make this application only within ONE day (e.g. today it is only people whose number ends in 3. Missed that day? The website was down? Bye bye money). If the accountant of your company made ANY mistake or the website is down for whatever reason, you cannot even apply (so the government is setting the employers, the employees and the accountants against each other. In case some thing goes wrong the employer will blame the accountant, the accountant will blame the employer and the government and the employee will blame all three of them )
  • And then we have the “scientific” jobs which the government says that they will give them 600 euros, but they will have to attend a 100 hour webinar to get them. Noone knows why, noone knows when that will be, how it will be done and measured, when and where to apply for them.

A typical process here, more or less…

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Hey, don’t beat them down too much.
It was a hastily made attempt to try to help the economy, yes it’s not perfect but

this hasn’t happened, they’ll probably give more days, like they always do.

It isn’t perfect, but at least they felt responsible enough to give funds to the people during a pandemic. They adjust stuff as it goes. Our taxes go somewhere. Not many countries took similar initiatives.

And this from someone that doesn’t really care for the current government and will probably be out of a job by Autumn.

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In the UK, the government has apparently guaranteed 80% of the salary of anyone (except the self-employed) who can’t work as a result of the virus lockdown. But I don’t know the details.

Apparently a literal 1,000,000 people are trying to ring the Universal Credit (benefits) helpline. I’ve been trying to get into a routine of ringing five times a day and hoping I’ll eventually get through.

My sister is still in the workplace (she works in a homeless shelter). But at least she can walk there and back rather than taking the Underground.

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This isn’t monetary help, the government is “paying” 600 euros for people who don’t have digital skills to acquire them by attending an 100-hour webinar (they are covering the training costs basically). Lots of the categories who are eligible aren’t good enough in PC stuff to keep working during the pandemic, it’s a quick measure to get them up and running working from home. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But it was given some thought and it may benefit enough people to make a difference.

I’ll put most of my post here, so that it doesn’t clutter the place with something that might not be interesting for most people:

Read only if you are interested in the details of our system of monetary help during the corona virus

Hey, don’t beat them down too much.

My accountant is one of my best friends from school, so I hear a lot about the problems. He is livid with all that pile of forms and applications that the government tossed on him to fill, not to mention that everyone and their dog is ringing his phone to ask him about it.

So, I was actually trying to be impartial. If he was around to describe the system, we would have had to put a large X-rated banner on the whole thread :stuck_out_tongue:

It was a hastily made attempt to try to help the economy, yes it’s not perfect but

but it could have been made easier and fairer for everyone.

Example: Everyone should have made just ONE application in order to inform the government of their IBAN which is the only piece of data really missing from the government. The tax agency knows what kind of work everyone does (there are codes for them) so they could have automatically assigned and checked which employer corresponded to those codes or not and automatically discerned everything.

The same applies for the employees. The government insurance agency has that data already. Why do we all have to go through this convoluted system that taxes the morale of everyone involved in such a difficult time? If anything goes wrong and someone that was supposed to receive some money failed to go through the hoops (or, even worse, they closed the hoops on them) then you can imagine the infighting between employee, employer and accountants.

Also the system could have been fairer too. We should all have taken less money and more people should have been the beneficiaries. I elaborate:
It makes sense for me, who I was ordered to stand down from my work from the government, to take some monetary compensation. Good.
Doesn’t it make sense for the supermarket cashiers who are risking their health to keep those shops open, to get a monetary reward for their service in such trying times ?

Personally I am feeling bad about all those people that have to keep showing up on their jobs, while we are told to “stay home - stay safe”. Shouldn’t they get something ? Of course they should. But they won’t. Why? Because instead of trying to find an easy and fair system, they opted for the “confusing, exclusionary and convoluted” package as they always do ( all our governments we have had in my lifetime do that. I am not being political here)

this hasn’t happened,

“yet” is the magic word here.
The fact of the matter is - and I checked that a couple of days ago - that according to the directives you cannot even log in into the platform if your number does not finish to the correct corresponding day AND you cannot even apply if your employer hasn’t applied first and declared you in a correct manner.

This does mean that if your employer was not feeling in the mood to go through that, you get nothing. Not even the ability to apply, even though the government knows that you work in a place that was shut down.

they’ll probably give more days, like they always do.

They will, like they always do.
And it will be a mess, like it always is :stuck_out_tongue:

but at least they felt responsible enough to give funds to the people during a pandemic

The promise of money is the only thing keeping people in and relatively calm.
It was not a matter of responsibility, but of gaining time.
That is why they made the process so lengthy and convoluted :wink:
Plus it is very crucial to be able to point at someone else to deflect responsibility.
If someone failed to complete the process, the government can always blame the employers or the accountants. But if they were to do this automatically and in a simple manner, they would have had noone to put the blame on if things didn’t go well.

“Deflection of responsibility is an art” as an army lieutenant told us once during training. And if a small cog in the civil service knew that, you can bet good money that the big cogs know it too.

On to the more general stuff:

Consider this with the coronavirus
Assuming that there will be a smooth transition out of the coronavirus crisis, then everything that goes wrong in the coming months and every thing that the governments fail to accomplish, it will be blamed on the virus. It will be the sixth standard excuse in the classic routine:

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My objection is mostly about saying things are definitely wrong/bad/inefficient, when this might not be the case.

Replying to Jeth :-)

We all know accountants, I’m a business consultant, but anecdotal evidence is not helping.

Yes to everything about cashiers.

If companies don’t apply, they have to pay you themselves. This measure is so that government covers the cost. And they’ll probably check, all EU funds check that stuff excessively.
I’m not saying it’s all good; but I don’t understand the dismissal either. If it’s not perfect (yes it’s convoluted etc, we all live in the real world), you’d rather they did nothing?

We know everyone’s limitations here. Believe me I have no imaginary admiration for our country. But the fact that accountants bitch about it, when I know personally accountants who misinformed employers for years “to save them money on benefits and salaries”, well yes, when you don’t declare stuff (and staff) accurately, it will come to bite you at a time like this.

I agree. But it’s such a big thing that’s happening, that it will probably be mostly because of the virus. The people will have to assess their governments’ reactions personally and responsibly, and that’s when it will be brightly shown that people have the governments they deserve.

I’m not defending the government here, I’m not a sheep and I don’t think they are saints. But “everything is wrong, and in a perfect world this other thing would be happening” helps nobody.

People are literally changing their permanent residence on IRS so they can get permission to spend Easter in the countryside. Their only worry is to game the system so they can spend Easter at their village. This is who we are. Let’s adjust our expectations accordingly.

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I agree. But it’s such a big thing that’s happening, that it will probably be mostly because of the virus.

Well, some of them yes.
E.g. “No tourism?” Sure you can blame it on coronavirus and you would be correct. (even though we did nothing to attract tourists so far in our municipality, but they will have a legitimately good excuse there).

But no roads, no repairs, no infrastructure etc? They will pin it down to the virus and on that occasion it will not be true, but it would still be a good excuse for the politicians to sit back and do nothing.

This is who we are.

No argument there. The situation of each national government reflects the temperament of its citizens.

Which is why I am not saying anything about perfect world or anything.
All I am saying is that can we just create a system that makes sense for once? :stuck_out_tongue:

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Canada, right? :+1:

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Yep

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Don’t know if anybody else already posted this, but here’s an interesting chart that compares Covid-19 deaths to the daily average for other causes of death for the whole US: Covid vs. US Daily Average Cause of Death | Flourish

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When the bars start flipping… that made me anxious.

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What this graph doesn’t (and couldn’t due to lack of data) take into account, is that all bars should rise since the hospitals don’t have time, space and resources to treat those other causes either.

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Well what you’re actually asking for is where those conditions are treated. Not many of those are treated in the ICU / ER.

Chronic illnesses and things like terminal cancer do not typically have their casualties die in a hospital.

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Not typically in the ICU / ER, but they would be treated at a hospital and have a larger chance to die without such treatment.

I’m not sure how things are done in the US (where the graph is based on), but here in the Netherlands doctors who work at different wards are reassigned to help with the “corona ward”. If you have a cancer treatment every so often to keep you alive, they might not have the time to do it when the hospital is full. If you had a car accident, but the ambulances are already dispatched to bring corona patients to the hospital…

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I don’t know how things are done in the USA either, but in Canda elective surgeries are still going on, as are all outpatient, ER, and other routine activities.

Nothing has changed in Canada yet, and I have not heard any reports from CAN/US about people not getting treatment for any emergency situation. Hospitals are still putting emergencies over COVID-19. Sure the ER room may be full of “people who are afraid and think they have COVID-19”, but the ER room is typically full anyway.

What might actually increase those numbers (without doing any actual research or making further assumptions), is that people are going to be more “in denial” about having heart attacks and denying themselves medical assistance due to the fear of being exposed to COVID-19 in the hospital.

EDIT: Actually what would increase all numbers is the high burnout rate for medical care providers. I’ve heard a lot of them quitting or committing suicide or becoming depressed, etc. That would be the worst thing I think.

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Then you’re still living in a country where the outbreak is manageable (at the moment). If you look at the Italian situation, things will turn sour; doctors there had (have?) to choose between patients they can save and patients they have to give up. The numbers in NYC suggest that they are at the brink of a similar crisis.

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Triage will always happen in a hospital / ICU / car crash scene.

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So what’s your point? The numbers for cancer victims, accidents, heart disease, etc. will stay the same?

Triage always happens. I’m just saying that the bar has to be raised significantly when there is not enough capacity.

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