Seems the video was taken down.
Not that it has to do with coronavirus anyhow, does it?
It’s a shame that the video was taken down. It’s an important documentation of these times, but I’m sure it will be found again.
Well, I think the disastrous handling of the pandemic has a lot to do with it, and the general situation with the riots and looting.
I don’t think it would be fair to say that the riots/looting have been instigated by the protests against the horrific police brutality, but rather that criminal elements of society have opportunistically seized upon the chaos of the situation. I think that COVID has played a very large role in exacerbating the severity, since so many people are deeply suffering, having lost their jobs, lost loved ones, and been reduced to poverty and desperation. While, of course, that is not to excuse their behavior, unfortunately a profound lack of hope or anything else left to lose can drive some to crime.
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Yeah, I was interested to see it.
That’s exactly the sort of consideration I was wondering about/fishing for.
I don’t know what I think about this yet. I’m afraid of/cynical of some sort of “oh, if it weren’t for COVID we wouldn’t be having this protest about police killing people”. And yet the environment of tension obviously has a role. And that itself is part of the the overall picture of the state of the US: the one country that has been unable to control itself and thus control the pandemic…
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This is all I’m going to say on the subject:
It’s not covid, America is inherently racist and it won’t start respecting its own citizens if it doesn’t start respecting other citizens as well. They need to learn the mechanism.
I can’t believe it’s more heartbreaking to me that people die every single day because of hate (plain and simple) than it is to their own fellow country people. I’m more sad when mass shootings happen than their own relatives sometimes. Uproar about the riots, but not about why these people riot?
Protesting develops to rioting when enough is enough, anger reaches a point where it can’t be contained*. I’d rather not have riots, but I’d also rather not have wars all around the countries close to me since I remember myself. Not optimistic about it.
Looting is people taking advantage of situations and they can be whoever has zero morals, there’s enough of them everywhere.
*I feel rage whenever a rapist walks free because “she asked for it”. I feel threatened every day. I don’t break cars or windows, but I feel rage for the systemic oppression of this large part of the population I’m part of. So, it’s not unrelateable to me.
P.S. On the subject, people holding protests during a pandemic, probably moving between different locations. I’m afraid it won’t turn out well.
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Well, I think the disastrous handling of the pandemic has a lot to do with it, and the general situation with the riots and looting.
This is Athens over the football Cup final 
Compared to that the Philly video seems “normal” … I was listening yesterday some US news coverage on the issue and the reporter was a shocked that one molotov coctail was thrown and I was like “aaah, things are still calm then” 
On a more serious note though, everything is relative. In every society there are people that just want to watch the world burn so I do not think that the virus had much to do with all this. While the states are not used to such public outcry and rioting and they are a relatively docile population (despite being armed to the teeth), I guess when something happens rarely it has much more shock value and maybe it is easier for them to say “hey it was CoViD’s fault, not any underlying social probles we have had for years” and brush the whole thing under the carpet (again).
On the other hand that re-inforced my previous statement that deregulated societies are non-existent for a reason, even though they have been regulated for so many decades that they have forgotten how chaos looks like.
Which brings me to the next part:
Here’s what I was trying to say.
Very interesting. There is then a very clear difference in how we view the world and I find that very good indeed. That is the beauty of dialogue, meeting new people, learning and exploring and arguing over different opinions 
In that regard I want to point some things (mostly the ones relative to the topic and the virus, I am very keen on having a nice discussion about this and staying on topic at the same time):
The three most fundamental Natural rights are given by Frederick Bastiat in “The Law”: “Life, Faculty, Production. That is to say: Individuality, Liberty, Property. These three gifts from God precede all human government and are superior to it.”.
Those sound very good, but there are some issue with them.
a) if they are “gifts from God”, the situation on our planet casts a large shadow on that statement considering that there are billions of people that have none of the three (heck, millions of people do not even have clean water). As a christian, I am very reluctant to attribute such things to God, since the theological implications of “all humans being equal” and at the same time some people having those “God given rights” and some not, are quite severe.
b) Jesus was famously not very fond of Property and the way of divine salvation being a bit narrow, one could say that he was not much in favour of Individuality and Liberty (I can find the verses where he tells someone to donate all his belongins and wealth and follow Him - in that verse, all those three aforementioned “God given rights” are effectively cancelled)
c) It remains a fact that different countries, even when they have the same religion, have totally different sets of rights. So, if rights are not really universal, the whole idea of having them and holding them in such a high regard loses a lot of its meaning
d) There are other, totally different ways of protecting your rights (whatever those may be within a given society) and you do not need to be armed yourself to protect them. Since your system practically requires a benevolent society were people are fully aware of their personal shortcomings and their personal responsibilities (a.k.a. an utopia), then supposing the same thing then there is Plato’s idea in the “Republic” where there is specific caste of armed forces, with a very specific training that protects the citizens and their rights, which is a much more efficient idea as utopias go.
Anyway, having set the stage, let’s go to the main event:
In that case (in a hypothetical society wherein I wrote all the laws), he should be guilty (after a fair trial, presumption of innocence, all that, of course) of reckless endangerment, Negligent Homicide
Even with the doubtful status of the Rights, isn’t it fairly obvious that first and foremost among them is “the Right to Live”? Way below it is the right to be educated or not, the right to ignorance, the “Right to Choose”.
In that regard isn’t it reasonable for any society that really wants the rights of the people to be protected, to begin with the most important right ? In that regard is it not know from antiquity that “it is far easier and preferable to prevent, than cure” ergo, isn’t it far preferable to educate the citizens on the use of cars, instead of letting them run around and crash to each other ? Doesn’t that protect more citizen’s “Right to live”? The other citizens still retain their “Right to choose” ( “Do you want to train and have a car or do you not want to learn how to drive at all and not have a car” ) and more citizen’s right to live is protected without - and that is important - stressing the judiciary system with the flood of accidents which would have happened in a society without trained drivers and no traffic laws.
Then he should (in the same hypothetical society as above) be guilty of Gross Negligence and pay damages to the neighbors downriver (that alone would probably make anyone think twice about trying this
), Negligent Assault (for the people poisoned)
As with the car accident, you are making a very scetchy assumption: That the people involved survive
If they are dead or deformed for life, I am fairly certain that “damages paid” are a bit moot. Why not protect those people’s right to live in the first place? Why is “the right to choose to be ignorant” more important than life itself?
And now we are coming to the virus part:
Correct. If someone knows that they are sick with something contagious and deadly (not making any comment on if that’s covid), then there’s a case against that individual for reckless endangerment.
Indeed, if they know it and do nothing, that can be a trail case, but in a situation like the one we were in where tests were not abundant, everyone could have had the virus and not know it
And the question becomes clear now: Which course of action protects the citizen’s right to live better ?
A) Apathy and pretending nothing is wrong or
B) Assuming that since the possibility of having or contracting the virus is high, then we should follow some protective measures (social distancing while waiting in lines and wearing masks)
Right to Life vs the “Right” to look pretty ?
I think that it is fairly obvious which one is more important, risn’t it ?
And then we go to the part where in order for a society like the one you envision to work, a high sense of responsibility is demanded of the citizens else you would just have chaos and anarchy, like the riots. If the only thing keeping the society from unraveling are the courts (as you described) then what that practically means is that “anything goes as long as you do not get caught” and that is no longer much of a society but a Wild Wild West scenario where the folks with the most guns, money or influence locally are the masters of everyone’s rights to anything and the whole thing collapses, despite its initial good intentions 
So, since a high sense of responsibility is demanded of the citizens, where is their sense of responsibility and, I dare say common decency, in the behaviour “I do not care if the person gets in line gets infected, I am not getting even slightly inconvenienced by keeping a small distance or wearing a mask”? Sounds like a petulant behaviour to me and a far cry from anything that could be described as “highly responsible”.
Nothing. Those are all great things to do. I think that it’s a great idea for people to choose to take some driving lessons if they think they need them
Well, we are not talking about things you instinctively know though so that you can “choose” to not learn more about them. For example I play football and basketball. I have chosen not to be take lessons in them and so I am bad at them, but simply playing does not require any skill other than being able to walk/run. So, since they are activities that involve the natural skills that come with my body, training can indeed be a choice.
But noone is born with driving skills.
Noone is born with the catalogue for pesticides and their dosages and side-effects in their minds.
Those need training and if you choose not to have any training, you actually choose not to have any car or pesticides. It is that simple if you are a responsible person and you want to respect the right to Live of people around you. If not, then it is just the definition of “eating your cake and having it too”
but if some guy wants to go out and buy a Cesna, he should be able to do so
Hey, I asked about driving a Boeing 747 with passengers not a Cesna.
I knew that you’d say that if you want to fly and endager your own life it would be ok, but what about when your “right to do this or that” is immediately endagering others?
I was very deliberate on that for obvious reasons
Now if he has any brains at all, and he probably has at least some if he can afford an airplane, he should get some instruction but if he wants to risk his life learning something which gives no second chances
My point exactly about cars and pesticides and the virus. The only difference is that in all those cases it is other innocent people that are getting hurt. So, it is no longer a “personal” choice is it ?
If all that sounds amenable to someone, I think they have a right to not wear clothes.
Good.
Now think on how complex was to arrive on that result and think of this: If it is your clothes, then it is your choice indeed. But you would agree that a fellow walking naked around has no right to declothe anyone else, right?
And now we come back to the virus. If it is your health, it is your choice indeed, but wouldn’t you agree that a fellow walking around possibly infected has no right to infect anyone else and should wear a mask ?
Can we please NOT make this thread about America and its fixation with “freedom”?
Oh come on. It is very relative to the coronavirus and, as I said, they are the trendsetters of this world. We cannot simply pretend not to care what happens there
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No, it isn’t, it’s just a subject that you like arguing about. (I like you, but that’s the truth).
I never said that, but not EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION has to be about that, or revolve around that, or be made about that, or linked in any way possible to that, because it’s a subject we want to state our arguments about. It’s an interesting discussion, please have it somewhere else, please and thank you.
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No, it isn’t, it’s just a subject that you like arguing about.
Well, truth be told I like arguing about most things , but I really do think that all this is very relevant to the coronavirus. All those people that packed up their assault rifles and protested in their state capitols for their states to be “freed” or “liberated”, were motivated by all this “liberty for the individual above all” ignoring the dangers for their fellow citizens.
At that moment:
news channel X was like “the protesters have no masks and no social distancing, it will spread corona-virus”
news channel Y was like “the protesters are there to exercise their freedom and 1st amendment rights”
At the riots right now?
news channel Y is like “the protesters have no masks and no social distancing, it will spread corona-virus”
news channel X is like “the protesters are there to exercise their freedom and 1st amendment rights”
I am not naming the channels because I am not interested in politics, but I am interested in how easily people overlook situations and apply double standards. And this is not something that happens in the states alone. Even in our tiny country the news covertage wildly changes depending on what channel or newspaper you tune in. It is not only the states. We are slowly setting ourselves in smaller and smaller echo-chambers and that has caused a lot of problems now and it is going to be an even bigger problem in the next crisis.
Anyway, I understand that my long-winded posts might be boring for most, so I’ll tap out and if anyone ( or specifically @Samraku which we had the discussion at the moment ) wants to continue that part, feel free to send me a Private Message and we will continue it from there
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I do not think you’re incorrect, but there is a subtlety I must point out.
In my opinion, while racism is the cause, COVID-19 is the context. I do not think protest would have been this numerous or widespread if not for the pandemic. It’s already been pointed out that for many people these are desperate times for numerous reasons. However my focus is on something else.
This pandemic makes us all more vulnerable than usual. It is a time when we all need more support and solidarity. Then, if you are part of a minority, to witness how a systematic oppression continues, without mercy, even in the times when you are in most need of help is a feeling that can hardly be described. It would feel particularly cruel and almost intentional that you are supposed not to gather or protest due to social distancing requirements: to wit, it feels like it is taken as an opportunity to oppress with even more impunity.
Now, I’m not Black American (I’m not American for that matter). Like you, I’m extremely shaken to see these things happen. In my country, it is not uncommon that we see ourselves in the mirror of the international community in trying to make sense of our strengths and weaknesses, or what can be done better. I find it so unfortunate that within American culture there exists a certain level of reluctance to regard themselves as a country out of many instead of a world of their own. Sometimes that perspective is necessary to understand that some problems remain because you don’t address them, instead of being necessary evils.
To your other point , I’d like to add something anecdotal.
In my country, there is an endemic problem with femicides—about one woman is murdered every week—. Sure enough, we reliably make the same excuses that you already mentioned and, when in protest, someone vandalizes the walls of a catholic temple demanding “my body, my choice” or some such mottos, people also say that “That is not the way to protest”.
The anecdote is this: there is a saying that has made it into banners and T-shirts that can be seen sometimes on Women’s Day. It is something Latin American, and as far as I can tell, it started in Mexico. It reads “Mom, if tomorrow I don’t come back, f&$ck everything up”. Many people get outraged when they read this.
I do not. It may as well be ineffective or counterproductive but, at a personal level, if society so uncaringly fails to keep their end of the deal, why is that you are expected to continue keeping yours?
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Leira, one of my likes for your post is not enough. I would like to give a 
for every single sentence you wrote. I agree 100%.
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I agree with everything, I’d like to offer a clarification: what I meant was that the pandemic didn’t suddenly make people do things, just because they got cabin fever. It acted as a catalyst for endemic problems to explode.
People didn’t suddenly become racist or abusive (one side) and fed up with being treated horribly (other side). It just reached its boiling point.
I mentioned in an earlier post about protests in Russia that yes it’s not advisable to hold protests in a pandemic, but I understand people who can’t hold it in anymore. I’m worried about the people protesting during a pandemic, I’m not suggesting they should maybe wait for a more convenient time.
It just gives me the impression that it’s a country that, as a whole, doesn’t care much.
I’m sorry for the long clarification, I just wanted to make sure you understand I’m not disagreeing with you.
Off-topic: regarding femicides, a very publicized rape and murder trial was concluded recently in my country (covid measures caused a lot of procedure problems). It broke my heart, it’s never-ending and it always breaks my heart.
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Let’s not overload this topic with discussion about protests and looters
Maybe Its better to split? @Eugene
graph of sum of new cases / week instead of day
it looks like increase is bigger each week
But, if we don’t ignore recovered, real increase is smaller
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It might be slowing down but pandemics tend to do surprising things.
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Would be surprised if the US didn’t rise again. With all of the protests and riots. Some people still won’t even follow the orders to wear a mask.
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I bet there will be another lockdown in winter, and maybe then the OGS registrations will rise again.
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Not just the US, there have been massive protests against racism in the US & in the rest of the world outside of the US as well. Here is Amsterdam, for example:
(photo: ANP)
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Is… that… right now 
so… many… people.
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In Germany as well, but much less than in Amsterdam. Something like 2000 people in Berlin.
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