Basic Life and Death Scenario

[BHydden]

Yes, I have historically taught adults in a similar fashion. If capture Go has any value at all, I suspect it is only with children who cannot yet comprehend the full aim of the game. I haven’t quite gotten my own kids to that level yet (currently they just take it in turns putting stones on random intersections haha).

[shinuito]

@BHydden

If capture Go has any value at all

Capture go problems

Capture go is arguably the simplest possible go variant. The only rules are: Black and white take turns placing stones. Passing is not allowed. The first player to capture one (or more) of the opponent’s stones wins. Capture go is a great way to introduce new players to go, since you don’t have to explain scoring or ko. But it is also an interesting variant for experienced players. Many of the tactics from normal go no longer works, most obviously snapbacks and throw-ins. This means that it i…

[martin3141]

@BHydden

If capture Go has any value at all, I suspect it is only with children who cannot yet comprehend the full aim of the game.

I disagree. Capture Go is not only a good way to start with when teaching the rules (imo), it’s also a valid variant on its own.

https://forums.online-go.com/t/anyone-interested-in-playing-capture-go/17206

https://forums.online-go.com/t/capture-go-problems/31531

https://forums.online-go.com/t/capture-go-tournament-starting-tomorrow/25007

[Animiral]

@ArsenLapin1

“I shouldn’t prove that it is dead because I would lose points if I did” it’s not really an argument.

[…]

If you need to claim “this is obviously dead because a referee or AI or player who is stronger than me would know how to kill it, even if I don’t” then you’re not playing go, you’re just haggling.

If both players are weak enough not to know the status of the bent four, then white might as well be considered dead until proven otherwise, since he might not know to play on 1-1 to get a chance at ko.

The “appeal to the player’s ability” is the real non-argument here, it is reduced to absurdity. The only way to resolve the situation is to follow the rules of Go. In the Japanese case, it’s dead.

[gennan]

In the 10 years of my real life youth club (Japanese rules in principle), I’ve only seen 1 case of this bent four situation in 1000s of games. It was a quite recent (13x13) game between a 17k and a 20k. The players asked me during scoring if it was a seki or not. Maybe they sensed it was a fishy situation, because at their level they are usually able to score seki correctly without my help.
I told them it’s dead and tried to show why. They may not have fully understood it, but they both accepted my adjudication without discussion and scored the game accordingly.
If I hadn’t been around, they would probably have scored it as a seki, which wouldn’t have been a problem to me either.

[david265]

@BHydden

(currently they just take it in turns putting stones on random intersections haha)

You might consider playing a variant of go with them where each side tries to build a wall across the board and interfere with the opponent building their wall across the board. This can introduce local fighting, liberties, and a bit of strategy as well, I believe.

[BHydden]

Thanks, that’s a neat suggestion. I might give that a go.
Another variant I like and want to try teaching them is survival go (basically capture go, but with the emphasis on keeping your own stones alive rather than killing your opponent’s stones).

[hoctaph]

Gonnect

[ArsenLapin1]

@BHydden

Another variant I like and want to try teaching them is survival go (basically capture go, but with the emphasis on keeping your own stones alive rather than killing your opponent’s stones).

Can you describe the variant in a bit more detail? It sounds like it’s exactly capture go.

Between more experienced players, it’s well-known that “atari is a bad move” and that you’re more likely to win a game of capture-go with nobi and few big groups, than with atari and hane and lots of disconnected stones.

I think there are several go teachers who have the opinion that beginners should keep playing capture-go until they’ve reached the skill level where capture-go becomes a game of territory.

[BHydden]

That may well be the experience of more experienced teachers. Truthfully, I have yet to attempt either as when I was teaching adult students I just went straight into regular Go.

I have been lead to believe that “capture go” leads towards a fighting style that is overly aggressive and that “survival go” naturally lends itself to students filling a board with all living groups which leads to them asking “so, now what?” which is a good opportunity to introduce territory and scoring

[ArsenLapin1]

@BHydden

I have been lead to believe that “capture go” leads towards a fighting style that is overly aggressive and that “survival go” naturally lends itself to students filling a board with all living groups which leads to them asking “so, now what?” which is a good opportunity to introduce territory and scoring

So my question is: is there a difference between the rules of “capture go” and “survival go”, or does the difference reside merely in the name and the strategic hint you give to the players?

[david265]

@BHydden

survival go

I wouldn’t start with this, when players are just playing randomly. It brings up advanced issues such as eyespace, life, and two eyes at a time when capturing is barely understood. Perhaps this is just my preference. I always want to start as simply as possible, so that the rules, tactics, and strategy kind of evolve as play continues.

Just one example: instead of teaching “no suicide” before play starts, I’d wait until an actual local fight motivates the “no suicide” rule (assuming you’re using a rule set that includes “no suicide”).

[BHydden]

@david265

instead of teaching “no suicide” before play starts

Yeah, even teaching adults I never taught suicide or ko until they came up in a game.

@ArsenLapin1

is there a difference between the rules of “capture go” and “survival go”, or does the difference reside merely in the name and the strategic hint you give to the players?

The latter.