Discussion about R16,pass,M17,P16,Q14

At position R16,pass,M17,P16,Q14, @dragon-devourer started the conversation:

How can White continue from here?

( FYI @aesalon )

I had this in a game recently and played white N16 but black attacked from both sides, white became heavy, lived small and was mostly enclosed while black got large territory top-right corner, right side and top side. Not good for white.

Outcome of the game

In the end we had a fighty middle-game with a big ko that lead to me killing a big group in the middle so I won by resignation but I was surprised as I was way behind after the opening. Game is here if you’re interested: DGS - Game #1355427,179

1 Like

R17 corner attach (and then pull back or counter hane to trade for small corner life), p14.attach, N16 shoulder hit, M15 cap and tenuki again are the common local continuations. Of course White is at a local disadvantage so if you play too heavily you can easily get a bad result. You should have had a good reason to enter Black’s micro Chinese shape with the high approach and have a plan how to continue before, not after, you did so. In your game you had no good reason to enter so early. There’s no quick way to settle so it will likely lead to fighting that depends on the whole board position. If you do want to do something against that black corner early, then the attachment at 4-4 is a great lesson from AI: it can either switch direction to the lower side (which is good because you don’t let black make efficient use of the micro Chinese side stone in attacking you) or more easily settle in the corner. You should probably think of that attachment rather than one space high approach as the default way to approach.

It’s with the mini rather than micro Chinese extension, but here’s a favourite pro game to illustrate how the approach can be used when there is pressure on the black pincer stone so leading to large scale fight. T:2623 R:1 (Uberdude vs Uberdude)

And then here is me putting those ideas into practice in my game. 19x19 ladder challenge: nrx vs Uberdude


I think it is very situational. White should wait to make the invasion until there is a moyo to destroy or a way to isolate and pressure the pincer stone. You can see some games with a waltheri search.

In your game, it was simply too soon and you were only trying to settle. Thus making black too strong on both sides.


It’s not so surprising that w has some difficulties with like two tenukis. That would be a position I would enjoy as b.

Thank you for the feedback @Uberdude @aesalon and @Groin.

A few points:

  1. I have put some of @Uberdude’s suggestions into a demo board here: Micro-Chinese joseki

  2. This topic has accidentally become a review request so could one of the @moderators help me to move these posts to the review request topic I just started please? Review request 6k vs 5k Thanks :smile_cat: