Well this is an interesting and useful clear line to draw.
“It is rude to pass before the territories are sealed”.
Is that the rule?
I would absolutely say that’s the minimum point one should be passing if politeness is a consideration of theirs. (to be clear, nobody is going to be banned for passing early, I see this as a discussion on good etiquette)
To say it another way, I think passing before this point is akin to saying in chat “I think you should resign now” which we as a moderation team tell people is not something permitted on our server. Obviously they are not identical, but I believe they are at least comparable.
2 Likes
Cool - sounds like that question is cleared up 
1 Like
A couple thoughts: Many people are coming from games that do not have a tradition of resigning, and instead there is a strong culture of playing to the end even if the winner is already obvious.
Also this game is a shared experience between two people, and there is more to it than just determining who won. And some people want to continue the experience beyond the point where the winner is determined.
And there are players that just look at the situation, and play good moves, or interesting moves, or fun looking moves. Sure they understand the main goal is to win the game, but they have other goals as well. Some players don’t really bother trying to determine if they’re ahead or behind, they just continue playing good/interesting/fun moves the entire game.
6 Likes
All great points
This is true. But it puts all the politeness in these people’s favour, doesn’t it?
The thing I think we struggle with is how the other person can politely signal “unless you really are keen, I think the game is over, can we end now, if that’s OK with you?”
We literally have no polite way of asking this, and all the benefit is to the person who wants to play on for non-winning reasons, and the winner just has to suck that up…
1 Like
I think politely asking in chat is fine. The problem with passing is it can be interpreted as not a question.
1 Like
I am so bad that I can’t tell I lost and I’m not professional. I’ve yet to properly study endgame (it’s on a to do list) so I’ve only a very rough idea of how to count score.
Case in point, playing a ladder match against a dan player and I’m sure they’ll know they’ve won far before I know I’ve lost. Realistically I should probably resign now at move 50. I don’t think anything has died but have a weak group getting attacked which can’t be good (surely they’ll get a lot of points out of this). I’ll still play on because large portions of the board have barely any stones in them. How is anyone supposed to learn anything if they’re told they have to resign the moment the game looks bad. How would anyone practice endgame?
4 Likes
Yeah I think if I was losing and someone said “do we need to continue this right to the end?” ,first I’d double check that I am losing and can’t come back (I’m presuming correspondence where I have time to count), then I’d probably resign. Unless there was something specific I wanted to practice and then asked them as such to play a few more moves out.
I mean someone more or less asked me on DGS the other day the same thing. I thought it was within a couple of points, so was hoping to capture two or three stones somewhere in endgame, or cut into some territory. But once none of that was an option and there were a fair few one or two point moves here or there left and they asked, I rechecked the score, realising it was more like a 10 point gap, and resigned saying thanks for the game etc.
I didn’t feel like they were being rude to me. Although I try to refrain from asking someone to resign myself. I still usually see things on the board I’d like to try out or practice myself.
1 Like
i have zero problems with players who are losing not passing. they could be practicing or just trying to reduce the loss or even not recognise they are losing. if in the meantime i am right and i keep passing then my score improves.
on the other hand as a bad player i do find it irritating when you play a 19x19 and your opponent resigns when they lose 2 stones. that does not compare to games where it is obvious i have lost so i pass to see the score and my oppo carries on playing. ok i could resign but i want that score (strangely i would be happier with resigning when losing if the game was still scored just for info purposes). to me i pass to say ‘nothing more i can do you are well ahead’. so double standards really…
Your entire response here is wonderful. Thank you for typing it up. I enjoyed reading it very much 
2 Likes
i feel like sharing this very old post here again. the topic wasnt exactly the same then, but imo it fits the overarching theme. then, this post changed how i used to think about the issue of resigning vs ending a game and i am very thankful to @sTan for it. ive been able to enjoy go more and in all situations since.
really, the polite thing is for the winners to stop whining about how they are winning 
.
@danielt1263 s logic is certainly sound . but the fact also remains, that it is intuitively wrong to say resigning and playing on are essentially the same thing, when, imo, the exact point of playing on is not to resign .
the two are clearly different, as can be seen by their different results. one ends the game before concluding it, the other results in a finished game including scoring phase.
7 Likes
Thank you for sharing this. This is something that I and probably many others needed to read. When you accept a game you are accepting the fact that it may be played out to the end. Resigning should be a courtesy to allow a player a way out of a losing game and never forced upon them. 
6 Likes
They say you need to resign if you see no way for yourself to win the game anymore. But my opponents keep surprising me somehow screwing up absolutely won positions. And I hope I sometimes surprise them too.
I think there’s a bit of a difference here:
- Players losing and trying to come back and win. Nothing feels more pleasant in go than the feeling of your prey flailing, desperately trying to find a way out. I like that one. When opponents resign without thrashing around a bit it’s a bit anticlimactic.
- Players losing and just trying to finish the game. If it’s at the end of the game - fine. But if it’s not endgame, it’s annoying to play opponent who doesn’t even try.
- Players playing meaningless moves at the end of the game. Sad.
3 Likes
Let’s be honest. Even beginners know that playing a series of self-atari moves is pointless. They are no longer playing go in any meaningful sense. They are simply waiting for an earthquake to resolve the game in their favor. These are the actions of a six-year-old mentality.
1 Like
There does seem to be a not inconsequentially sized group of people who if losing want to cause some sort of irritation to their opponent.
To quote John Scalzi - ‘cos playing as a tantrum-throwing child is no way to go through life’
Goes with the territory with modern online interactions where the worse consequence for bad behaviour is having to create a new account (and possible IP for serious bannings). I cannot see people consistently like that lasting long in the game though as eventually their own time wasting and anger would surely eat away at any pleasure playing?
1 Like
Oh, you’d be surprised…
3 Likes
Of course resigning and playing on are two different things. One extends the game length whereas the other doesn’t. I take exception to your latter comment though…
When you say, “one ends the game before concluding it”… that statement doesn’t make any logical sense. When the game ends (whether by one person resigning, or both players passing,) it is concluded. I don’t see where calculating the score is in any sense a part of the game proper.
1 Like
I recently received this book as a gift, and found the full quote (from page 123):
Although a westerner might view a pass much like any other move, the protocols concerning it have often been quite special. Historically, some arrogant players have used a pass as an emphatic statement that they think the opponent’s prior move is so bad that it requires no response. Correctly interpreting such a premature pass as a gesture of contempt, some referees have forbidden it.
2 Likes
- Happy New Year
- I’m obviously backreading old forum posts
- Is tactical passing a thing? I may have done it by mistake, but I’d consider it “cheating” in a way. When it’s my turn, I’m expected to respond in most games, no?