Guess the rank of a "historical game"

I was researching some history-related topics with Go magazines from the 1970s to the 1990s, and came across this “historical game” played in 1991, and I was curious what you would evaluate the rank and strength of black and white in this game. And it is transcribed from the pages of the magazine and ended at move 200 (move 194 is missing, but I think G4 is reasonable?)

What range would you put the strength of black and white? (in the period of the 1980s and 1990s) Strong/Weak DDK? Strong/Weak SDK? Dan?

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I see strange tenukis, life and death mistakes, lots of endgame moves which are really too small (154?? And why not play the ko at 178? And what’s that empty triangle 190?), an almost wasted move 88. At 126, White didn’t see that Black could capture the two stones, but Black didn’t notice either. So I think they are DDK. But Black seems to play better than White. Is it possible that their levels are different? If so, perhaps strong DDK for Black and mid-DDK for White? Or perhaps weak SDK for Black and strong DDK for White? Despite all those mistakes, many moves are sound.

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Interesting, most “bad” or slow moves you noticed are after mid-game, do you think there is a big gap for their opening and mid-game moves? Or just very uneven across all moves (so you judged them as DDK?)

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I also found that White played worse than Black at the early phases of the game. White made several dubious tenukis. Move 38 is strange, why not respond to the hane? And it feels overconcentrated. Move 40 looks like bad shape. Move 46 attaches to a weak stone, White should play from the weaker stone Q6.

Black makes fewer blatant mistakes, like the connection 71 is a bit inefficient, M9 would be better, or perhaps R8. The capture 77 looks slow. The cut 93 is on the wrong side I think.

So I think that Black is not stronger than weak SDK, and played the whole game better than White.

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This was probably a game that was recorded/published for being in some local/school competition or something similar? :thinking: If I were to guess, for 1991 they would probably be considered around 9k for Black and probably 12k for White?

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I was gonna say 7 or 8kyu and 12kyu. Now waiting for Counting_Zenist to return and announce that we are breathtakingly wrong.

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I thought the opening looked pretty strong (1k), then I saw a move I’d consider weak and scared, so I settle on 5k.

I guess we can also make this a guess “who” post, this is the picture of one side

(and if you recognize him, you might be able to guess why I might not be able to give a definite answer)

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Never seen him, and I don’t know what “historical game” might have been played in 1991 where one of the players doesn’t have a definite rank.

That’s Mark Boon decades ago. He’s the creator of the Goliath go engine that did well in computer go competitions around 1990. It won a prize in 1991 for beating a Taiwanese pro while receiving a 16 stone handicap.

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So was the game a match between two AIs? If so, I had no idea that AIs were (relatively) already so strong in 1991?

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Do you happen to know him personally?

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Somewhat yes. I stayed in his home in Amsterdam once around 1989 IIRC. But he has lived in Brazil for decades, so only recently I met him again after a long hiatus. His EGD tournament history also shows a ~20 year gap from 2004 until 2023.

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That’s cool. It is exciting to read the Goliath code that he published. It is very well thought out, strong and highly efficient. Definitely some ideas that I’m going to adapt (which he allowed).

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He was living with peter then, the editor of go moon? I stayed in their house once for the Amsterdam tournament (in those years).

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Glad to find someone who actually met Mark Boon. And yes, indeed, this was a game between AIs instead of “players” (if you pay attention, you would notice I never used the word players in my post or replies to refer to either side). The black side is Goliath, the white side is Go Intellect, the second place of the 1991 Ing’s International Computer Go Congress) for the Computer vs Computer category. Below is the score sheet (they actually met in the first round)

And here is the full-size picture of Mark Boom (I cropped out the computer for obvious reason)

Here is the picture of the creator of Go Intellect - 陳克訓

Here is the picture of the creator of Many faces of Go - David Fotland, who also keeps records of the International Computer Go Competitions. He won the best UI design (at the time called best screen design 最佳螢幕設計獎)

And there are some “inconsistencies” for the record in 1991 Ing’s Computer Cup, here are the pages of the first hand report


It says Goliath beats 3 dan rank players 林至涵 陳威宇 and 張凱馨, who were 4d, 4d, and 1d at the time (林至涵 and 張凱馨 became pros later, currently 9p and 6p) with 17 handicaps, but lost to all 3 of them with 15 handicaps, and there were no records of them playing 16 handicaps, we even have pictures of how the 17 handicap stones were arranged


The 15 handicap games were played after the main event (after dinner), and I highly doubt there was any unofficial “16 handicap event” against “pros”,

The “ranking system” at the time in 1991 in Taiwan was very different from that of today. The Ing’s rules/system has its own ranking method, and technically not a “professional” system. It has three “tiers” 品(pin), 段(dan), 級(kyu). The pin tier is akin to pros, and instead of counting up, it counts down with strength, with 9 pin the lowest, and 1 pin the highest rank. Each rank in pin gives the lower rank 2 points in Ing’s rules (with even game 8 points komi and black wins in draw). Below pin, there is an overlap of the pin and dan rank, 5 pin is 9 dan, and 9 pin is 7 dan. The discrepancy came from dan rank gap is 4 points instead of 2 points, and dan rank players can attend tournaments as well (all tournaments were held with handicap stones or points, so in a way dan players were semi-pro). Since “pros” in pin teir are way stronger than those in competitions, and the dan players in this competiton were all still very young kid at the time, the likelihood of Goliath beating a pin teir mature pro at 16 handicap at the time is very slim.

We can also “measure” Goliath using the Ing’s ranking. Below dan rank, the gap changes over time. It was originally measured with 6 or 8 points per rank (in the 1970s and 1980s), however, later increased to “1 hand” (16 points equivalent in the 1990s). And they are considered real amateurs, and didn’t compete in the same tournaments. 1 dan player at the time needed to give the lowest rank 18 kyu tier players 17 handicap stones. And Ing’s system wasn’t the only “kyu ranking”. There were also the 甲乙丙丁戊己庚辛 groups and each group would give the next at least 2 hands, and this “big gap kyu” was likely the source of why they skip from 17 handicaps to 15 handicaps (and we can see from the records of Ing’s Computer Cup, that the rewards were also awarded based on 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, etc. handicap gaps).

This 1991 competition has historical significance, because this was the first time a computer program Goliath, finally broke into the “kyu” rank of 17 handicaps, and got the reward for the first time ever. So technically, the rank of Goliath at the time would be awarded in the Ing’s system as 18k (or 17k and likely why it was thought as 16 handicaps), but failed to reach 16k. While Go Intellect, failed to reach kyu tier in the Ing’s ranking.

Having said that, when I first saw this record between Goliath and Go Intellect, I was very surprised as how “sensical” Goliath played, and I personally wouldn’t rank it as 18k or 17k, and as most in the thread, would likely put it at least high ddk, or even sdk if I just saw the first 50 moves (thus why I start the post as a guess the rank, instead of a normal historical thread). There was a review by Nick Wedd in 1997, which as 1k can beat Goliath with 9 handicaps. The strength of Goliath is in its “sensible shapes”, but not quite as good at mid-game fighting, hence likely around ddk to nearly sdk range in the 1990s ranks.

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I also know Peter Dijkema. When you know Peter, you may also know Rob Kok, who was also a go reporter at the time? I don’t remember if Peter and Mark were lving in the same house. I was never a regular at the Amsterdam go club, so I don’t know all the details of its scene in those days.

According to his LinkedIn page, Mark Boon currently lives in California.


(his Linked-In avatar)

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I think stronger go playing progams at the time were basically expert systems that largely followed heuristics and patterns that were hand-coded by the programmer (who was typically a high dan player in those days), i.e. more a Shannon Type-B strategy.
Computers were basically too slow to play go well using the Shannon Type-A strategy (brute force), while that did work fairly well for computer chess even then.

So in a calm position, stronger go programs would often play sensible-looking moves, but in a more tactical position that didn’t match any pre-programmed heuristics and patterns, they would be brittle and prone to collapse.

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The first paragraph of the article recording this event above, quoting 沈君山 (a very important Go figure in Taiwan, 6 dan, scholar, physicist, and later president of the Tsing Hua University), saying in the 1970s, when he first played and studied computer Go, most would crash immediately, if the opponent played unreasonable move like 1-1, and because Go board is so open, and free to place stone everywhere in early phase, they had to consider all the “unreasonable responses” just to finish a game without “crashing”. And Go shapes basically give some “cheat sheets” for selecting candidates within existing stones (so they might play “slow” but on the shape points, but with no good shapes or in liberty race, life-and-death, it would run into big trouble if they don’t have a good evaluation function for them)

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