How to Count Territory

[Martin-Wuluweiqi]

Click here to watch the youtube video https://youtu.be/bdQPqpUbX0Y

According to Chinese weiqi rules, when the game ends, the dead stones of both sides must first be removed from the board. Since the total number of intersections on the board is fixed, counting only one side’s territory and stones is enough to determine the result. For convenience, before counting stones, some simplified counting methods can be used. The side being counted arranges its empty territory into tidy areas in units of ten, then fills the remaining scattered empty intersections in other regions with stones. Then the total number of all complete empty areas is calculated. Next, the remaining stones of the side being counted on the board are counted. Finally, the number of complete empty areas and remaining stones are added together to obtain the total number of stones for the side being counted.
Now let’s practice the stone counting method.

First, remove the dead stones from the board.

Next, we can see that in the upper-right corner there is a mutual life, and both A and B are shared liberties, so each side gets one point.

Place one black stone and one white stone at A and B respectively. Now begin counting the number of White’s stones. Arrange White’s territory neatly in multiples of ten to make counting easier, then use the remaining white stones to fill the scattered regions.

In this way, we can calculate the total number of White’s complete territories: upper-left corner 10 points, top side 30 points, left side 20 points, lower-left corner 30 points, right side 10 points—five complete territories for a total of 100 points.

Next, count the remaining white stones on the board: a total of 78 white stones. Under Chinese rules, territory plus stones are both counted, giving a total of 178.
Finally, we know that there are 361 intersections on the weiqi board, half of which is 180 and one-half points. Since Black plays first and has an advantage, we artificially apply a correction—Black must pay komi of 3 and 3/4 stones to White. Thus, Black needs 185 stones to win, and White needs 177 stones win, so in this game, White wins by 1 and 1/4 stones.

And this is how to count territory in Chinese rules.

[JethOrensin]

Thank you very much for the tutorial, but I am still baffled, to be honest.

The White area that was counted as “20” only had 9 open liberties/points.
The White area that was counted as “10” only had 8 open liberties/points.
The White area that was counted as “30” only had 8 open liberties/points.
etc… the method/algorithm via those areas were created doesn’t seem very intuitive, considering that a lot of times the box has black stones for borders.

Would it still be valid to just re-arrange the stones without taking any living stones out, counting the territory and then proceeding to the last step of counting “remaining white stones on the board”? If this also is a correct way to score, I think I’d opt for that, in this case.

[Counting_Zenist]

Remember, for area scoring, both the stones and empty space enclosed (open liberties) are “area territory” (in Chinese, we call it, 子空皆地). Hence, it doesn’t matter what the end-game empty space looked like or their numbers, you can very well fill in every empty space with stones and count them and get the same result.

The trick is to “minimize” the amount of stones need to be shuffled to create easily-countable shapes (like 2x5 space of 10). And since every intersection has to be filled (filling all dame), you can even swap the border stones between them and still get the same amount (they just swap places, but don’t change the total count). The only downside is probably if you want to count them quickly, you might destroy the end-game position border shapes, hence more difficult to track yose, if you cannot easily recall all the moves. (you definitely can rearrange into whatever shapes for the “empty” as you see fit, as long as you can count them and add them into the remaining stones, you can even pick them all out and count them outside the board, they don’t change anything, just the time you took to shuffle them). This is the beauty and flexibility of manual area scoring.

[dokbohm]

there has to be a simplier way to count who is winning and who is losing, than that approach above postings while its extremely well done in explaining the complicated way this game counts, most people iam sure just don’t get it and fake with saying they know who is winning or losing i guess useing the computer is the only way most can get an accuate reading then again maybe most people that play this game have advanced thinking processes, ciurse that doen’t explain the children who play this game at very high level iam sure they couldn’y explain the count system to each other, than again maybe savants can

[Groin]

You can fill all with stones if you want to keep the boundaries

You will then count more stones and less emptiness, doesn’t matter

Anyway I posted that a few years ago.

Chinese counting

Someone asked me a tutorial about how we count a game in Chinese rule. (He’s going to have to IRL.) The very first thing is to understand what we want to do. We are going to count all together, meaning the stones and the emptyness in the middle of the stones. We count only for one color and then we can see if this color occupies more as half of the board, or not. [Screenshot_2021-09-10-18-10-35-36] Here the game is finished. We remove the prisoners to the stock of stones (bowls), prisoner…

[Bray]

@dokbohm

i guess useing the computer is the only way most can get an accuate reading then again maybe most people that play this game have advanced thinking processes,

Step 1 is knowing how to count the score at the end of the game in the first place. If you don’t know that, you can forget the rest of it.

Knowing the count during the game requires practice and game experience. Stronger players who put in the effort are better at counting. The players aren’t “faking it” but they are estimating to the best of their ability and/or desire to work at it.

At your level, don’t worry about it. Play the game to the end and then figure out the score. You have a thousand more important things to focus on.

[Sadaharu]

Nowadays we just take out our phones and snap… And there you have it!

[PJTraill]

Funny title for a thread about counting area!

[PJTraill]

@dokbohm

count who is winning

This thread is not about estimating who is winning during a game, but counting the score after a game with a real board, as in the photos.

To see who is ahead during a game, I think it is easier to use the Japanese counting system: estimate how much empty space the groups will end up enclosing. That almost always either gives the same answer as the Chinese system, or is 1 point better for White — so the difference is marginal.

@dokbohm

most people, I am sure, just don’t get it

I think you underestimate how much difference practice makes. As you get better, your errors in estimation reduce, as do your typical winning or losing margins. But at 25 kyu it is not so important to estimate the score; just try to keep your groups alive and threaten your opponent’s groups.

@dokbohm

children who play this game at very high level: I am sure they couldn’t explain the counting system to each other

They might not be good at explaining, but I am sure they understand it.

[Groin]

@PJTraill

But at 25 kyu it is not so important to estimate the score; just try to keep your groups alive and threaten your opponent’s groups.

From your very first game it’s essential to not forget what you want to have more, even if it is commonly forgotten.

But you can rely on some intuition instead of a counting until being good enough to practice an estimation.

@dokbohm

children who play this game at very high level iam sure they couldn’y explain the count system to each other, than again maybe savants can

I played in the middle of hundreds of children (aged between 6 to 10 years old) who could end and score their games without any help from an adult.

[dokbohm]

if that is the case, children like you say can count where they stand in game using that system - then its a pretty sad state of affairs for me i guess - then again i have said this from the start i was a little slow on the uptick

[Bray]

Please try to stay focused.

1. Do you know how to score a completed game?
2. Do you know why a stone gets removed from the board during the game?

[dokbohm]

short answer no to both questions

[Bray]

OK, that’s fine. You simply have to learn the answer to question 2. It’s one of the most fundamental rules to the game. Every tutorial that people have given to you covers it.

I promise that if you take the time to actually go through a basic set of rules and figure out “why does a stone ever get removed from the board” your game will improve immediately and you’ll have way more fun.