How to make TNL better?

I definitely will not have time to review several games per month !

what about one game per month?

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That should be feasible. But reviewing as many games as played games is highly unlikely, and would probably hurt overall quality of the reviews

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I like the idea of promotion/demotion in a continuous league.
Use live ratings.
Don’t like the ladder idea.
Time zones are not a problem.
I don’t like byo-yomi.

I agree with vaughnhannon - timezone differences are the biggest problem for me. If TNL was separated into timezones then you could designate certain times for people to play and actually schedule all the games ahead of time. For example, Wednesday at 7pm CST could be set aside for games in the Americas. Of course people would be allowed to reschedule their games but I think more structure would help.

I like the idea of charging a small membership fee and $2 a month or something there about isn’t unreasonable.

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I don’t think any fee will work out. Some go players have no money.

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Sort by timezone … but but but!

Some (most?) people in US really want to play in the evenings. Some really want to play in the day. If you lump the two together, there is still a scheduling problem. And you’ve eliminated the easy to schedule games for the latter group.

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Or $3 or $5 a month and give scholarship to those who can’t afford?

Payment of a small fee might also improve the level of participation. Even a small amount of money tends to make people more committed, and to weed out those who aren’t at all committed.

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I think this will reduce the league, there are lots of people that don’t want to pay for such things because of all kinds of reasons

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I would be willing to pay $2 a month, and yes, I would probably get my games played within the first week, lol. I’d probably pay $3 or $5 as well. Not sure whether it’s a good or bad idea, but I would pay it.

Thinking about the fee idea, I believe there would be some unintended consequences. Probably best to keep payment voluntary.

In my opinion, this discussion does not hit the point.
Wether to play in ladder-modus, to install a fee or timezone-groups, to have more reviews or whatever is discussed here - the quality of every players games and performance in his league is questionable.
The polls made it worse, but even 30min Fisher did not give time enough to perform your best Go. Why not play sensible and decent and stop this showdown-games where everybody is playing poor moves because of time-pressure? No one improves whilst under this pressure. If I have the opportunity to discuss my game with a opponent of the same strength or if I can get a review by a stronger player, I would like to have the feeling of having done my best, not of beeing ashamed of taking wrong decisions in a too fast game.
For me it seems here, that all the effort done to find fitting opponents and proper scheduling is not worth that quickly and halfhearted game a player has to play here. Games of that I can have everywhere on the servers, The offer to pay for lessons started these days even on this server (Anti Tormännen / Finish 8 Dan moving from KGS). So what could make TNL different or special? For sure not paying! If a player stands up sunday at 7 o clock or staying awake past midnight to meet his partner, he should have the possebility to play in competition-style, not in lightning-mode.
I am out of TNL, and I feel pity about, because I was enthusiastic an appreciated meeting people of all countries. I think Erasmas idea of installing a review system would do good.
I am back if games are changed to 45min at least, better to 1h time per player. To play for amusement only I do elsewhere.on OGS.

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I think gubbelface has a lot of good points in his post. Time settings are a big part of it, and if we’re going to the trouble of scheduling games as we are, we ought to at least set out a decent chunk of time for a well thought out match. Better games, better reviews, et cetera.

I can resonate with a lot of things that yuri is saying with regards to a ladder format, but I am not sure it is the best move. Solving the scheduling headache seems like a better path to participation.

Setting up some kind of review system would be a major bonus in my mind. I’d like to offer more reviews to kyu players but I don’t frequently enough have my eye on the chat channel to see them being played.

I feel like our core mission should really be about serious study and learning about the game for all different players. Forget about the frills and get the basic mechanics working well and TNL will find steady growth.

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Did the break in April affect your participation in May?
Certainly did not

Have you played more than half of your league games? If not, why not? (a)Lost interest (b) Opponents didn’t respond to scheduling requests ©Schedule mismatches (d)Too busy (e)Other, please specify
For being in the league 2 months, I have had no problems with scheduling and I have gotten almost all of my games in. There was one instance where my opponent didn’t show up, but we had enough time to reschedule.

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? (a)reviews (b)finding OGS opponents near same level (for friendships and/or rivalries) (e)Other, please specify
Reviews, def. But if the players are serious, I think they should have the incentive to review themselves even without a stronger player present. I know all the admin’s are super busy already, but it would be cool to have say the winners of each group get a live session/lesson in, not just a review. I don’t really know what other incentive you could give you get more interest/participation. In order to get real prizes going, then perhaps the fee makes sense, but the free cost of TNL I think attributes much to the appeal. My current group has been great, the games very exciting and I’ve met some cool people. I think that should be rewarding enough and like in the game we all love, we shouldn’t be too greedy, especially considering all the work the admins have been doing to keep this thing going.

Do you usually review your game with your opponent? (yes, mostly yes, about half, mostly no, no) Does reviewing a game with your opponent help you? (yes,no,depends) Did you get any reviews of league games from stronger players? (how many, did you ask for one) Did you review someones games?
Even if my opponent leaves, I will still review the game. I would rather do it with someone stronger, and not by myself. Luckily I haven’t been alone in my reviews.

Are members of your group mostly (a) at your strength level (within 2 stones) (b) stronger than you (more than 2 stones) © weaker than you (more than 2 stones)
All my opponents have been more or less evenly matched (although at DDK level, when you’re opponent constantly overplays it’s no easy task to play well…especially with those time settings).

Is the way of sorting into groups important for you? If yes - why? (allow multiple selections) (a)don’t want to lose too many games, (b)don’t want too many easy wins, ©competition is very important for me so rank of my group is important, (d)evenly matched games are more exciting
Well, yes, isn’t that one of the main reasons to join this league? To find evenly matched opponents? Those in the league or currently joining should already know what they’re getting into. If you know you’re going to have a busy month, AND you’re trying to test your luck by scheduling games with opponents in different time zones, then shame on you. It makes me sad to see those progress bars so poorly filled. Why did you join in the first place if you’re just going to ignore the people in your group anyway?

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? What was your best experience playing in TNL?
Winning a game by .5

How important are time zones? To be honest, I don’t think this will solve the scheduling issue. People will still end up complaining that they can’t schedule games. I think we should keep it as is.

My main issue is the time settings. ESPECIALLY against people who overplay. The opening is so important and there’s always so much to look and and explore in terms of options. But it’s hard to take my time doing this when all of a sudden I see I’m down 10 min in the first 15 moves. So once I hit endgame, I’m already at byo-yomi…this always happens. A major aspect of playing go is taking the time to read. But if we don’t have the time to read and just play “instinct” moves and read a few stones ahead to see if they work, how is someone supposed to improve? Even just 5 min more main time would help. But to be honest, TNL is a commitment and as such it really should be 45 min games at least. PLUS a review after. This is what everyone should expect if they really are serious about improving at the game we love.

On a final note, I think a nice incentive would be to get a live lesson for the winners. Although I know it would be asking for too much. I know none of what I have said solves any issues, but this is my opinion on the matter. TNL should stay free, paying wouldn’t weed anyone out, I think that’s a false hope.

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I’m not good at reviewing the games, i tend to forget most of the things i did read while playing, and i’m really really bad at answering the question “would this have been better”

Well that being said, for the 2 league games i managed to play this month, we (me and the other player) reviewed them together. And think it helps, maybe it had been even more helpful to get somebody stronger to review them too, but discussing about the game with the other player without any 3rd person present is nice too. :slight_smile:

No, not this month, but took part of some reviews from a games i were spectating the game. But referencing to the earlier, when i don’t know about the game before it’s played, i really can’t spectate it, and when i just check the game and replay it fast, i really don’t feel like reviewing it. :<

Lost both of games i played, but it didn’t feel like i was doing badly before playing few big mistakes. Maybe they were both slightly stronger than me, especially in fast games.

All of the above xD

[quote]How important are time zones?

I rather play at the nighttime, easier to get away from all distractions when im the only one awake in the house. So i find it nice to to have players from across atlantic, not all europeans want to start playing 2 hour game after midnight

I agree, i just don’t think it as “fun” to be playing with this month time settings. I can totally understand that 30min+5x30s is enough for many, but that main time is easily used long before yose, and 30s byo-yomis are gone in a flash. If it has to be byo-yomi, then can we at least have 1 minute periods?

I totally agree with Gubbelface. Too short time settings make TNL games no different from any other random game played on OGS or KGS. Add the fact that the league is not continuous (classes are reshaped every now and then based on live rankings), and the difference is even less noticeable.

I also would like a longer time setting.

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Hey guys,

I am in the process of reviewing your responses and will announce a redesign of the league this weekend (May 30/31). :smile:

Cheers, xhu98


Hey Xhu!

You know TNL has been great already, right? Thanks again for all your hard work.