How to make TNL better?

Internet Go Nova League
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###Hey guys!

###As you know, the end of May TNL is approaching:

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###While we are certainly looking forward to the future of TNL, we do want to take this moment to hear from you guys and explore the best options for the league. Feel free to answer any of the following questions, and please be honest and respectful. Several users have PM’ed me and shared their ideas; if you have done so, we kindly invite you to distill your thoughts in this forum thread. :smile: :heart:

The following list is compiled by @saxmaam, @terr, and many other guys in the TNL chat channel. Thanks so much!

  • Did the break in April affect your participation in May?
  • Have you played more than half of your league games? If not, why not? (a)Lost interest (b) Opponents didn’t respond to scheduling requests ©Schedule mismatches (d)Too busy (e)Other, please specify
  • If you dropped out of TNL, why? (a)Lost interest (b)Scheduling problems ©Too busy (e)Other, please specify
  • What do people think would make the league interesting for them? (a)reviews (b)finding OGS opponents near same level (for friendships and/or rivalries) (e)Other, please specify
  • Do you usually review your game with your opponent? (yes, mostly yes, about half, mostly no, no) Does reviewing a game with your opponent help you? (yes,no,depends) Did you get any reviews of league games from stronger players? (how many, did you ask for one) Did you review someones games?
  • Are members of your group mostly (a) at your strength level (within 2 stones) (b) stronger than you (more than 2 stones) © weaker than you (more than 2 stones)
  • Is the way of sorting into groups important for you? If yes - why? (allow multiple selections) (a)don’t want to lose too many games, (b)don’t want too many easy wins, ©competition is very important for me so rank of my group is important, (d)evenly matched games are more exciting
  • What do people think would make the league interesting for them? What was your best experience playing in TNL?
  • How important are time zones?

###Finally, please choose all options that you think should apply to the June TNL:

a) Pause the June TNL and redesign our structure
b) Decrease the class size from 5 to 4
c) Divide TNL into time zones
d) Extend the league cycle from 1 month to 2 months
e) Invent more appealing prizes
f) Schedule more reviews
g) Let each class decide its own time settings for the month, given a universal minimum time requirement
h) Sort players by overall rating, instead of live rating

###Last but not least, some good news: I have successfully implemented a communal calendar which can be embedded in the TNL website. Users can post events by filling out an on-site form, which will be pushed directly to the calendar and seen by everyone. :smile:

###Cheers, xhu98

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Reserved for my own responses
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a through h. I vote no for all.

I’ve found great Go friends through TNL,and got some great reviews from a stronger player as well as fine discussions with my opponent.

Using live rankings for the groupings has worked great for me in group J1. The games have been even and exciting. I suggest that the mismatches that have occurred have been due to players whose live rankings are inaccurate, mostly due to not playing many live games.

How groups are sorted matters to me. In previous months my games were almost all slaughters (of me :)) because sorting was by overall rank and my live rank is lower. I find evenly matched games more interesting.

I don’t find that time zones matter so much. The hardest games to schedule have been people who, like me, live in the US, but they want to play at a different time than I do.

Communal calendar: yay!

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well, you know this hard. so i’m not gonna pretend to have any answers, and certainly dont want to imply any criticism of the organizers or participants.

i guess the two things that come to mind are whether its useful to maintain
the monthly format and the class organization

i guess the class organization is useful to give people a goal
(be the top of my class, graduate to another class), but since
the classes are small, its hard to actually play half the games,
and there isn’t any continuity of classes, that doesn’t work so well.

i guess we might consider something more of a teaching ladder, with
some built in incentives to play weaker players, perform reviews etc, with
rewards centering around getting instruction from stronger ranked players.

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PS - I think TNL would still be cool with half as many participants.

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PPS - in chat I suggested using a ladder format rather than classes to simplify the sorting problem. The three or four people who discussed this with me all did not like the idea of a ladder for various reasons. Maybe there is some hybrid of the class (current) and ladder system that would work.

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I only first joined in March and found it was challenging to schedule games with opponents in Europe simply because of the time difference and work schedules. Because I had a delay in scheduling I did not get through more than half of my games and therefore could not participate in May. I’d hate to lose the opportunity to play against anyone in the world but it may be in the best interest of the league if we were sorted by timezone to better facilitate game scheduling.

I personally think that’s the biggest issue.

V

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right. another thing.

it seems like alot of people end up not having the time and/or flexibility
to play 5 league games a month. another population would be happier
with 2-3 league games a week

the second group loses out on the opportunity to play when the first
has real life interference

so, i think even if we dont try to work out a ladder format, some more
flexible scheme would be nice. i know, since i’ve played with them, people
similar in rank to me that are in different classes that would be happy to play

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From my experience with the league even if i was fairly busy the only game i wasn’t able to schedule, my opponent either didnt answer at all or answer at the beginning of the month and stop after 1 chat…it was a bit harder to schedule with europeen people but mostly wasnt that much of an hindrance for me.

i really like the format dont really think a ladder would be the best solution…maybe we could double the group and give 2 months, but require that people complete at least 60 to 70% of their game those who can’t should not be counted in the result but stay in the same class and in those that reached the goal of 70% the 2 best move up the 2 last move down. if after 6 month (so 3 ‘‘seasons’’) some player have less than 50% of completion maybe consider dropping them…

I thnk this way it would give more option to people who either can play more or less and give a cushion to people who are really busy 1 month or other reasons have hard time to schedule

Remember that may was also end of session for a lot of people it might have affected the participation if you combine it with the april break

Ben

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The biggest drawback to TNL is not having the games reviewed by a player who is stronger than both of the players who played the game. Of course, there is currently no incentive for a stronger player to do so.

Xhu is too busy to do all reviews. However, I have a suggestion. If every player who was part of TNL gave $2, some of that money could go towards paying a group of dan players to do video reviews of the game in conjunction with twitch.

This is my first month (May) with TNL. Scheduling was not that hard - once I learned where I was in the world time zones.

=)

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I havn’t been part this month, so don’t know of how any changes this month has affected it, but;

I think it would be wiser with smaller groups and maybe that you should play more than once against each opponent instead, maybe even “how many you want/can” even if i don’t know how that would be end up for positioning etc…

I’ve had a few reviews in the first months and they have been nice, if we were to play each opponent multiple times, it could be nice to have scheduled reviews in between, but that might just make scheduling worse, dunno

Scheduling, I found no problems with that the first two months, but the third, even if it mainly was the same opponents, it just ended up not being enough games played for me. And in my opinion, that wasn’t my fault, but that’s how it is. I don’t think timezones has been an issue in my case, but its well known it is a hindrance.

I don’t think making the seasons longer is a good solution to the nonparticipants/reallifegetsintheway but rather having a more relaxed handling on when it happens, as get dropped if you fail 2 months in a row, rather than after one fail. Or at least make a query on why and what that person wants.

Regarding ladders, I wonder how the people thinking about that, how they want it to work?
I picture;
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H are 8 players in the ladder (in order)
that for player C his group is A,B,C,D,E , while for player E its C,D,E,F,G… is that correct?
if so, i think it might work…depending on climbing the ladder actually would work (especially the case of "player X does never respond or refuse to play me, while (s)he still plays >50%)

I don’t really care about the sorting of my groups as long as I feel that the games themselves can be interesting, which they have been so far

So, finally, for the “ticklist” i think only “B” is of relevance, “E” is ofc interesting, but doubt if its actually needed, to be honest, I wonder if being able to “win” a group is good or not…

Calendar, yay

Edit: And yea, F is always good, for some reason i did not see it in the list

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Dear Xiaocheng-Stephen Hu,

I like the league as it is and do not see any need to change things.
Please keep up the good work and don’t get too distracted or concerned by a few comments.

Joachim (yellow)

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Do you usually review your game with your opponent? about half

Are members of your group mostly… at my strength level

e,h

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The April break didn’t affect me, though I think for a lot of others it did. I’m noticing a great increase in the number of people in my class who don’t respond to scheduling requests in a timely manner.

Scheduling can still be a hassle. If one of the players is playing at unusual hours then it is likely there won’t be a review. Most of my games have gone unreviewed. Breaking out by timezone or changing the class structure (perhaps similar to @benific23’s suggestion) might work to fix this, but I would rather not break out by timezone.

I agree with @grayson’s comment that absence of reviews is the biggest drawback to the league. Some of the original concerns about the league (expressed here by @LinuxGooo and @sefo) were that weaker players need reviews by stronger players, and stronger players need incentives to review and teach. I don’t think those concerns were ever satisfactorily addressed in the planning stages, and as such nothing ever materialized to help set the league apart from just offering an open challenge.

I do appreciate the community that I feel has developed among some league members. I think it’s a great foundation for an awesome league and it’s why I continue to participate. But l wish there was more learning opportunities to help rescue me from DDK hell.

As regards the list for June TNL: E & F are valuable to me, and potentially A. All others I vote no.

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Did the break in April affect your participation in May?
No.

Have you played more than half of your league games? If not, why not? (a)Lost interest (b) Opponents didn’t respond to scheduling requests ©Schedule mismatches (d)Too busy (e)Other, please specify

No because I’ve been quite busy so I postponed the scheduling, and now my opponents do not respond to my requests.

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? (a)reviews (b)finding OGS opponents near same level (for friendships and/or rivalries) (e)Other, please specify
I think the most important is to be able to find opponents near the same level and be able to progress within a league. The most important thing for me is to have the goal to get promoted !

Do you usually review your game with your opponent? (yes, mostly yes, about half, mostly no, no) Does reviewing a game with your opponent help you? (yes,no,depends) Did you get any reviews of league games from stronger players? (how many, did you ask for one) Did you review someones games?
No. I did not get any review for I did not request any. I sadly don’t have much time for this :frowning:

Are members of your group mostly (a) at your strength level (within 2 stones) (b) stronger than you (more than 2 stones) © weaker than you (more than 2 stones)

I think they’re at my strength level. I never noticed any big discrepancy.

Is the way of sorting into groups important for you? If yes - why? (allow multiple selections) (a)don’t want to lose too many games, (b)don’t want too many easy wins, ©competition is very important for me so rank of my group is important, (d)evenly matched games are more exciting

Yes : I want to play evenly games and above all, I want to get promoted/demoted in a continuous league.

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? What was your best experience playing in TNL?
I don’t know, but I don’t care for prizes.

How important are time zones?
They’re not very important to me.

Finally, please choose all options that you think should apply to the June TNL:

a) Pause the June TNL and redesign our structure : no
b) Decrease the class size from 5 to 4 : why not, it would not bother me
c) Divide TNL into time zones : no, it would not work
d) Extend the league cycle from 1 month to 2 months : why not, but then make it two games per opponent !
e) Invent more appealing prizes no, I don’t care for this
f) Schedule more reviews I would not have time for this but I guess this might be very interesting for other players
g) Let each class decide its own time settings for the month, given a universal minimum time requirement meh… I would not agree with this
h) Sort players by overall rating, instead of live rating NOOOOOOOO

Also, I would like to play longer games, like 40 minutes + 5*30s byo yomi, and I’m really attached to the fact that class compositions are the result of promotion and demotion.

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And I agree with Yuri’s proposition to make it a ladder. I think this could work. Make it a minimum of one game a week, and the obligation to play a game against a lower ranked player before being able to challenge a higher ranked player (or something like that)

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Did the break in April affect your participation in May?
No

Have you played more than half of your league games?
Yes

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? (a)reviews (b)finding OGS opponents near same level (for friendships and/or rivalries) (e)Other, please specify
Reviews that I got in the first month helped me a lot. I want to play opponents of my rank and promotion according to rank

Do you usually review your game with your opponent? (yes, mostly yes, about half, mostly no, no)
Sometimes, when I or the opponent wants it

Does reviewing a game with your opponent help you? (yes,no,depends)
a bit, but not very much. Reviews from opponents 5 stones stronger already help, so maybe there may be more reviewers, not only really high level players

Did you get any reviews of league games from stronger players? (how many, did you ask for one)
some, every time I asked

Did you review someones games?
No

Are members of your group mostly (a) at your strength level (within 2 stones) (b) stronger than you (more than 2 stones) © weaker than you (more than 2 stones)
we have players with overall ranks: 9k, 9k, 11k, 12 k, 14 k (group of 14k), so there are obvious differences in strength, though not so big to spoil all the fun:)

Is the way of sorting into groups important for you? If yes - why? (allow multiple selections) (a)don’t want to lose too many games, (b)don’t want too many easy wins, ©competition is very important for me so rank of my group is important, (d)evenly matched games are more exciting
Not very-very much, but rather important. I look for hard games and stimulating opponents. My first month in TNL was excellent from this point of view, cause then I played mostly live games and my live rank was my real rank.

What do people think would make the league interesting for them? What was your best experience playing in TNL?
For me it’s stimulating opponents, reviews and a chance for promotion according to individual speed of improvement (not only one group a month, and only if you win your group)

How important are time zones?
not a big issue

Finally, please choose all options that you think should apply to the June TNL:

a) Pause the June TNL and redesign our structure - not needed, but maybe change group sorting every month
b) Decrease the class size from 5 to 4 - No

c) Divide TNL into time zones - No

d) Extend the league cycle from 1 month to 2 months - it can be done but 4 games a month feels good for me, so 2 month - more games

e) Invent more appealing prizes - doesn’t interest me at all

f) Schedule more reviews - yes
g) Let each class decide its own time settings for the month, given a universal minimum time requirement - No, but I’d prefer 40 min main time
h) Sort players by overall rating, instead of live rating - it would be better for me
[/quote]

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My answer to all questions except f is a clear no. I have not experienced any significant differences in scheduling due to timezones. While it is tougher to agree on a time with players across the big channel, I have more trouble in general with players on my own continent.

Proposal 1:
As others have said, I mostly get my games scheduled in the first few days of the league and every game not scheduled within the first week becomes a problem during that month. Maybe, we could make it mandatory to agree on a date within 3-5 days after a league start. That would at least force players to deal with the scheduling issue early on. It should be ok to shift a previously agreed date occassionally of course, but I would personally prefer to have my scheduling done early.

As for the reviews, I also found this the weakest link. I do review almost all of my games with my opponent afterwards, however, since the strengths are pretty equal, there is no real insight to be gained from those reviews. Personally, I also don’t care about these video reviews at all. Most of them are way too chatty for me and simply a waste of time compared to a focused written review in OGS. (Off topic here: this is also the reason why I don’t like the friday show, as its content : time ratio isn’t anywhere near the point where I want to invest that time. It’s ok if you have lots of times, but if you want to spend your time efficiently it just doesn’t cut it for me.)

Proposal 2:
The TNL could adapt a reviewing concept similar to the teaching league at least for the non-top classes. Each participant would then have to make one review of a game of a lower class (2-3 classes lower, or whatever he feels confident) for each game he played himself. Also, lower class players who did not get a review yet can freely bug higher class players to give them one - it would be important though to have some way of telling which players still need to make one of their required reviews, so that the load doesn’t fall to one person and we don’t get flooded with requests all day long. Of course, if a participant doesn’t do his reviews, s/he has no right to the monthly badge (or whatever rewards there may be).

With this approach, I can see the following pros/cons:
Pro: Participants get a better learning experience through teaching
Pro: Participants get each of their games reviewed from a stronger player
Pro: Participants get a (very small though) incentive for making reviews
Pro: Participants will get access to a load of reviews of games by players of similar strength (as all games in their class would be reviewed)

Con: Administrative overhead - we have to provide a way for a participant to quickly see who is still owing the league a review.
Con: Participants need to bring more time along, as they also need to create the reviews in addition to their games.

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I find this a very good proposal

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I agree with the idea that everybody (starting from some level) has to review, but not every game. I think it would be ok if everybody got at least 1 game per month reviewed. Not every game needs a review, sometimes the mistakes are obvious. One review is not a big deal, everybody can do it. If a player want more reviews he can ask for more, like it is now

1 Like