The Go League Briefing

Announcements
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Hello ladies and gentlemen, I have now finally gathered all of the info I need for the league briefing and now I can share some of the things about the league such as some of the rules and workings. This is not the official rules page for the league yet. Now before I do that I would like to let everyone know that not all of these are gonna be certain till actual league start so please leave an opinion in the comments.

The first thing I want to tell everyone about is the name of the league the original idea was to call it ASR - Advanced Study Room and make it the same thing. Now due to some recent events it will have a name change and it has already been chosen. The new league name will be “The Nova League” I chose this name because I noticed there are some players who liked the name that OGS previously had so I wanted to bring a little bit of nova back into OGS.

Too sign up for the league you will need to contact Mikasa and/or other admins of the league when I announce them. Before that please read below some of the things that you will need to know.

To start, It is important to make sure that our players are really dedicated to playing on OGS or at least to make sure they are going to consistently play here. You will need at least 15 games played to join the league. NO SANDBAGGING WE WILL KNOW.

Classes will be listed simply with A, B, C, etc etc… I do not feel a complicated naming system is needed. Each class will not be a giant cluster of people classes will consist of no more then 5 to 7 players so you can find time to play every match.

The league placement will be by rank at start. This one is a bit complicated for people to understand so let me talk about this for a moment! The reason I choose to place it by rank is because when you stick a dan with many kyu and there is a giant cluster of kyu for this dan to play… or even a high kyu with a low kyu they start to wonder whose going to help them. The kyu are okay with this because there the ones who are getting the help but it can really bore the stronger players. So I want you to understand that you will still learn because when your game is done you can’t just leave call it good and say you didn’t learn anything you have to discuss the game afterwards to learn something… So just because it is sorted by rank and you will play people around your own level does not mean you will not learn anything if you can’t learn that way then your rank is probably not for you which means you are over or under rated. This will allow everyone to study the game with players there own level and it will be a competitive learning experience and not a massacre so please work with me!

The scheduling of matches must be done by you and your opponents we give a one month window to play every match against 5 to 6 opponents there is a in server email system. It is very simple you hit compose and in the “To” box you type there username and talk about each others time zones and schedule the match.

If you are having trouble playing all of your games within a month due to a real life problem you must let us know… I am a nice person I will help you work something out so you do not get kicked from the league or will you be dropped a class. I am not psychic I wish I was :frowning:. Please do not think I will just know. So if you get kicked from the league for inactivity I reserve the right not to be yelled at for not knowing your real life problems :smiley:

You are required to play ALL of your matches unless you are not able to discussed in the previous topic.

The settings for matches are still up in the air but I will post what we are thinking so far. The games will be live on 19x19 with japanese rules + byo-yomi of 35:00 main time and 5x50s byo, 6.5 komi. Please discuss this in the comments if you think its too much or too little.

Another important thing to note is that league matches are ranked this is done automatically by the system so it can’t be free anyway… I do agree with the system though that it should be ranked because the games are suppose to be competitive and learning by doing the best in your ladder you will rank up in classes meaning you will have to play stronger ranks and if your rank is too low because you gained some experience from your previous class it could cause problems.

I now want to talk about the prizes a bit… It is very difficult to come up with any real prize since we do not produce any money and its hard to get donations of teaching games for students I also do not think this works very well in terms of participation… I have come up with something else instead. I am volunteering as a teacher of the entire league and I hope a few others may do so as well you will be put on a list as a teacher with a rank and players of the league if they did not get enough learning experience from discussing the game with there opponent after you may come to one of the teachers and ask them to review your game IF they are available. You can volunteer as a teacher no matter what rating you are any help is appreciated. At the end of each month I will gather a few volunteers to enter as teachers in a drawing for all of the active players who played ALL of there matches for teaching games I will enter this every month as one of the teachers and hopefully others will as well.

There are a few more “Special” event things that will happen during the league but I have no solid plan for them yet so expect more then just a league.

Lastly, here is an example of how the league will work when determining promotion and demotion.

LEAGUE EXAMPLE Class 1
		1	2	3	4	5
1. Mikasa	!	X	X	O	O
2. lemmata	O	!	X	O	O
3. xhu98	O	O	!	O	X
4. mark5000	X	X	X	!	O
5. matburt	X	X	O	X	!

Promotion : The person in first place always has initiative when thinking about next level so if Mikasa has 3 wins and lemmata has 3 wins Mikasa will go up to next class and a month later lemmata will be ranked 1 in his class. In this example Mikasa only has 2 wins and 2 losses which means the initiative goes to the player in 2nd place you will notice that lemmata and xhu98 both have 3 wins and 1 loss the one who is higher in the list will move onto the next class and the one who got 2nd place will get to be in first initiative a month later.

Demotion : The person in the 5th place area has the initiative in going back a class so if Mark5000 has 3 losses and 1 win like matburt with 3 losses and 1 win matburt will be the one to fall down a class.

Promotioned and demotion into next class - When a player is promoted into the next class they are put into the 4th spot while the person who was demoted a class gets put onto the 5th spot.

Registration is not open yet… but please follow this link to join the group that it will be held in https://online-go.com/group/157

Please leave comments about what you like and what you don’t like it will really help thank you!

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They look aligned to me, unless I squash my window.

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Yeah I got them fixed :smile:

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5 x 50s seems like quite a bit. If you are going to have 5 byo-yomi periods 30s is probably sufficient. If more time per move is necessary, maybe drop the number of periods to 3 and do 3 x 50s, or 3 x 1m.

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why not 30min+15s fischer?

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Most of the go world is more comfortable with byo-yomi time settings. I would prefer 10m + 10m/25 moves Canadian time, but I know that makes me weird. :wink:

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We are actually thinking about changing it to fischer… but I don’t know yet I still think byo-yomi will make people more comfortable. If we change it to fischer time limits some people will have no idea what that is xD.

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I think byo-yomi time settings are best. I’d like a bit more main time though, maybe something like 45 min main time + 3 periods of 1 min byo-yomi? :smile:

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LinuxGooo - while detailed reviews of every game by dans with good pedagogic skills would be ideal, I don’t think it’s quite realistic or necessary to “expect” those qualities from the Nova League. As Mikasa said, there is educational value simply in playing serious games and reviewing them with your opponent, and if that’s all most of us get out of it, it will still be worthwhile, particularly if we don’t have the money to pay a teacher. I think you have money to spend, you’re better off hiring a pro with teaching experience than going with an amateur dan. At the same time, it would be nice if we could somehow reward those like Mikasa who are volunteering their time and expertise, whether through OGS donations or even just some kind of status symbols. Would be interested in hearing ideas on that front.

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Yes, the new league system will be an amazing addition to OGS. I’m sure it will be great fun and bring a lot of live games to the server.

Game reviews are something you can get for free on any server or website as long as your request is serious.

I had my reservations about the previously called ASR league on OGS because it was advertised as a teaching league which, in the way it was organised, it just couldn’t be.

As a professional KYU player I can tell you that one can never improve by discussing games between people of the same rank. Otherwise there wouldn’t be so many kyus.

How do you differentiate the Nova League from the general ranking system on OGS? You can play and discuss your games with your opponent, but do you improve from this?

Now that the name has changed (thus distancing itself from the original ASR idea) everything is fine.
It’s a fun competitive league and some people will love it.

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sefo please look into a league called Canadian league honestly I can’t see any help for you… no offence a player can only improve when they want to and you refuse to want too. There is a league called the canadian league who uses this exact same system and, there are kyu who make 1d in a year through that system :smile: and they don’t even have to offer prizes :smiley:

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Mikasa, do not worry about me, I have improved a lot and am still improving with a method that differs from what you believe is best. Don’t be offended because your method doesn’t work for me.

You’re giving the wrong example by using the canadian league. Yes people have improved, but they didn’t improve because of the league, they’ve improved because there’s a list of volunteers that will review their games on demand. It so happens that the games to be reviewed are league games but it would work the same for any serious game.

Don’t think I’m going against the Nova League idea (maybe that’s why you’re on the defensive?).
It’s quite the opposite actually. I’m sure it will be a fun and awesome place to play live games in.

The point I’m trying to make is that, by experience, the majority of kyu players cannot review their games together and expect to improve as a result. It might be possible between good friends on a real board but surely not online in a competitive environment.

The advantage of mixing different ranks in a league is that the weaker player doesn’t have to actively search for a reviewer and take the initiative to start studying. He is put in an environment that forces him to play a serious game and get it reviewed live.

I understand you want to improve on the ASR idea and this is very good. But I do think that on OGS, given the number of DDKs and SDKs, a mixed ranks league would work wonders.

I’m sure more awesome reviewers will volunteer to review Nova League’s games and people playing in the league will improve, but it will not be because they’re playing in the league per se.

I hope you finally understand the point I’m trying to get across and even if your opinion differs from mine you will try to be more respectful of what others try to tell you. (I know that as one of the very few active dans on OGS you’re not used to people expressing different opinions)

I’ve said what I had to say and I’m sure your league will kick ass regardless. Just try to not make disrespectful remarks about how I’m beyond any help.

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I think you read too much into what I wrote and you are getting offended o_o when I said “there is no help for you” I meant that you won’t improve by our system is you don’t want to or more so you can’t unless you put forth the effort don’t worry I am not offended by anything you say since its just an opinion…? I think everyone improves differently but everyone improves when they want too almost regardless of the method I have improved in many methods and no canadian league does not have a list of dedicated reviewers :smile: the system of the reviewers is something I am adding to the league myself not something I took from there in canadian league they discuss the games after with eachother even the ddk and sdk :smile: they improve because they want to and the games are competative they work together to become stronger ^^. As far as “WHY” you think they improve I disagree I think being in the league and discussing the game afterwards is what makes them improve. Anyway try to not take these messages too hard? :smile:

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Okay I understand what you mean by “no help for you” but next time you will have to write longer sentences so I get the context :wink:

So yes, with this system if you want to improve you need to very actively work for it as opposed to the ASR which is a more passive learning system.

The canadian league does have a list of volunteers for reviews though
http://www.go-canada.org/league/documents/HowtheLeagueWorks.PDF

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Alright on the first part I know what you mean some people tell me my sentences are cut short sometimes and I can agree :smile: I also agree that we will need to more actively work as opposed to ASR I can definitely agree with that as well for but for your final link :wink: that is old canadian league and how it use to work it does nto work that way anymore. The dedicated list of teachers didn’t work out for them because players preferred doing things with discussions :smile:

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Please, please, please can we have Fischer time! The arguments for it are plentiful but Byo-Yomi is particularly bad online because you lose several seconds for every period, simply because you have to beware of lag.

This means that, online, Japanese byo-yomi is the worst - when you are in overtime, you are losing the buffer time (on a really good connection, 2 seconds might be safe but, on a poor one, this might be more than 5 seconds) on every move. Canadian is a little better - you only lose the buffer once per period, usually 25 moves - and Fischer (or absolute) is best because you only approach time-out in very rare cases and can work yourself out of a sticky time situation.

Canadian is just bad because it causes a time crisis every 25 moves, causing your skill level and reading depth to oscillate.

Remember that time systems are supposed to result in fair, equal use of time, not to punish those of us with slow Internet!

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While I like fischer timing and can almost agree with what your saying we haven’t 100% decided yet and I think the last line is a bit unfair to put since I think every time i.e fischer, byo-yomi, absolute, and canadian time all are unfair when you disconnect.

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Disconnections are unfortunate and typically cataclysmic - at least in the scope of a single, real-time game - under all timing systems but they are fairly rare whereas lag is often common and simply due to geographic location, rendering it unavoidable for many players.

Playing online Go in South Africa, for example, requires a long byo-yomi buffer time simply because the servers are far away.

(I say that disconnections are rare because you can usually predict whether your connection will be prone to disconnects. For example, I never try to play real-time Go over a mobile network - I know they’re flaky. Even in South Africa, I have hardly ever suffered a disconnection when playing over a copper wire.)