The universal truth: all security is merely a deterrent. It’s actually quite rare to see security designed to defeat a determined attacker, because that’s really, really hard, and by extension, quite expensive as well.
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I think this is impossible, if one needed to use the bathroom, or tbh just stretching or something.
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I think the point of the hair splitting is that one makes sure to inconvenience everybody and yet still not really make it that difficult to cheat. Is inconveniencing everybody worth deterring a few lazy cheaters? I know you suggest that is fine, but I think that’s probably the real question.
The thing is, is there any point in cheating in the lower levels? Wouldn’t they be more likely to be the lazy cheaters? Isn’t all this supposed to deter the stronger players in the running for actual prizes? Usually there is a 5 or 6 win prize in a 5 or 6 round tournament sure, but apparently once you start winning a bit you’re under scrutiny anyway. It’s probably much simpler to recognise a DDK pulling out some magic tesuji to kill a group than it is the same for a dan player.
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Personally I just got cheapest GoPro knockoff I could find for 40 euro. It works pretty well. Only thing is if they ever wanted the recording i would have re-encode it. The videos are kinnda huge
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I think so. I haven’t been able to commit to any events due to scheduling but I only consider ones where recording is at least suggested as a best practice and would be more likely to play if it were required.
Also it really is that difficult to cheat once the hair-splitting starts requiring technical expertise or accomplices. That raises the bar incredibly.
Also, I don’t think everyone is being inconvenienced. Correct me if I am wrong but I’ve only seen it recommended for players ‘below the bar’. The most extreme that I’ve seen is the Coronacup setting the bar at 1dan.
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Nice pick!
Well that seems a bit over enthusiastic for what we discussed before! Still no clue how to do it from that federation.
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I participated in the Paris tournament as well as Corona cups 2 and 3, and didn’t record myself. No one asked me to prove my innocence. Probably my games were too full of kyu mistakes.
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I actually did just prop my phone up behind me for my first game but the battery died. Then it’s gets trickier to start rearranging a room to record yourself with a phone that’s plugged in for anywhere from 1-2 hours. Then storage issues as people mentioned etc.
Anyway, if mods want to move some of these off topic discussions to the other thread I don’t mind.
No one asked me either. Did I feel a bit pressured to record, certainly yes. Did it stress me out, not for the Corona cup, but for the other weekend tournaments, it certainly did, especially trying to clear space on my phone between rounds, nearly or actually forgetting to eat lunch etc.
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Maybe it’s the best attitude, just don’t care about all these recording and if you are suspected wrongly, boycott it next time.
Just need to endure some public rumors.
Keep the fun with the fun people, enough.
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It’s pretty awkward when someone does.
Edit: makes me wanna tell a story how I was asked. But it’s nothing special.
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I don’t think there is a difference.
My question would be what is the consequence of not recording?
If recording is mandatory then the consequence is clearly disqualification from the tournament (you have not followed the rules).
If recording is only optional or recommended (even strongly) then you can’t be disqualified merely for not having done it. However i suppose if there is suspicion of cheating then you are at the mercy of someone’s opinion based on the game record. It’s up to you to take that chance I guess. I would hope that the absence of a recording wouldn’t affect the decision making process but i can see that in a borderline case there might be a presumption of guilt which sways the verdict.
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If you’re not accused, probably nothing. If you are accused, probably thrown out of the competition, maybe banned from future competitions? Who knows.
Precisely. From other cases we know it’s difficult to prove someone used AI. It’s probably even more difficult again to prove if they used it only sparsely, like at key points in the game, or one sequence that helped them win.
It’s very easy, however, to be suspicious of someone however. You review your game (one you lost say) see they got a large fraction of blue or other top recommended moves and there you go, possible accusation. You play some nice tesuji (+followup) that some adjudicator thinks isn’t at your level (which I believe actually happened in the first Corona Cup How to catch cheaters online mentioned in the comments here I think, regarding some complicated sequences), and you can be under suspicion or accused.
I find it difficult to say something’s optional, except if you opt out there’s a bunch of consequences you definitely don’t want to happen to you.
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The comments on Corona cup 1 say “As you say, we ‘didn’t take measures against cheating’ in the sense that we did not finally convict any of our suspects.”
However I know that some suspected players were eliminated from Corona Cup 2 as well as the Paris tournament. I don’t know about Corona Cup 3.
Mostly it is said (and sometimes written) that if you fail to provide the record then it’s on you if committee decides you cheated, you don’t get to complain. Though most cheaters up until now don’t even try to defend themselves.
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The part I meant was
I’m quite sure we both investigated one case related to Corona Cup and it was pretty obvious. I removed his KGS rank and then his teacher, a very strong player vouched for him so I gave it back.
The suspect you mentioned originally looked like a fairly clear case, but the suspect had provably streamed on Twitch at the time they were playing, and their teacher also gave us contextual information regarding how the suspect could have been able to play certain more complicated sequences. These two were at least weak evidence against the suspect’s having cheated, so we decided to establish the suspect’s playing strength by having them play a game online during a video call with screen sharing. This showed that the player’s real-life rank was not accurate, again working as evidence against cheating (i.e., increasing the likelihood of the player’s having played strongly by themselves).
What I was getting at, was that you could be suspected by playing something complicated deemed above your level (although I’m not aware of the actual details, I didn’t participate in that one, and I’m only going off what I read. There might’ve been more discussion at lifein19x19). It’s probably not the case that in further editions anyone wants to go to efforts like that for every suspected game, rather put the onus on the players to record or as it was said
I’m not complaining btw about any of these tournaments, for the most part they were well done, worth participating in. I’m just defending the idea that it is indeed some amount of hassle even for the average participant, to comply with the anti cheating measures, and that while it’s optional, the consequences of not recording can make you either not want to take part or feel compelled to comply. It probably depends on the type of person you are.
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No, I meant it was only suggested for players below the bar and required by those above (with a chance to win).
Which is exactly what you posted and contradictory to the earlier post:
It is all off-topic anyway. I just posted initially because several of the posts before that were speculating on how recording isn’t foolproof… which I find silly and unproductive.
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It’s hardly contradictory since I believe something that’s “optional” but is strongly recommended because of the consequences of not following it, is very different from something being truly optional. If you take the word everybody completely literally then sure, some people chose not to record and it worked out for them. However there’s a pressure there, and even people I know who didn’t record initially in a tournament began to record themselves once they were performing well enough.
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I lost 4 games in 4 tournaments (corona cups 2 and 3, Paris, End Polio Now) and never recorded myself. I admit I was considering to do so, however.
Exactly this. How many people didn’t record and had an issue? None, a couple, more than five?
Hypotheticals and anecdotes. What are some observed consequences of not following it? It sounds like you and people you know feel some unwarranted pressure. That’s pretty natural for something new. Do you think recording shouldn’t be recommended or even mentioned as a way to avoid suspicion and accusations? I wonder how much you are playing devils advocate here or if you believe recording is actually wrong.
This could be problematic for players who don’t have a quiet place at home.
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