Kibitz Garden ☕ for the Second Diplomatic Go Game

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 11

yebellz

@yebellz

Honestly, I feel like the game is going reasonably well for @martin3141. They have a solid, living corner with clearly established eyes, and they will likely enclose a bit more by taking B2 next. They are in no danger from being eliminated any time soon. I’m concerned that they may soon show some ambition to influence other parts of the board by playing stones elsewhere. They have the luxury of solid eyes, while others are more formless shapes.

@yebellz

Here is the plan proposed by @le_4TC in the NBTO discussion:

@le_4TC

I think we should capture red as soon as possible, since the situation could potentially become dangerous for Maharani if we don’t act quickly.

My suggestion is something like this:
Me: 1. M7 2. K9
Maharani: 1. J10 2. J11
Yebellz: 1. G10 2. E10

If we go with this plan, the big red chain will almost certainly have no more than 2 liberties next round, letting me and Maharani capture it quite easily.

I have gone along with that (and added C12 as my third choice). Let’s see how it plays out. So far, everyone in NBTO has seemed to be quite trustworthy, so I don’t expect any hiccups this round.

martin3141

@martin3141

This is less an analysis post for kibitzers, and more an explanation for players who read this in the future.

My decision to stop discussing the game is an attempt to gain some emotional distance to the events in game. Funny that I wrote in the past “a casual mindset is helpful”, yet I can’t adhere to my own advice.

After Sanonius gave up on the lower-left corner, I couldn’t help but fear that PiggyStardust would attack me, and I imagined scenarios where they team up with yebellz and Sanonius to capture me. PiggyStardust had done nothing to cause this sort of distrust. Maybe I have some sort of trust issue.

I hope I did not hurt PiggyStardust by doing this. And looking further back, I also hope I did not hurt bugcat.

le_4TC

@le_4TC

My thoughts on the game so far:
I felt that my position was significantly worse than most other player’s at the very start of the game due to Kingkaio’s invasion. But now, with red close to eliminated and blue being potentially killable in the lower right, I think my position is pretty ok.

Diplomatically, I’m on good terms with yebellz and Maharani (I’m sure yebellz has shared some of what is going on with the northern alliance). If Haze_with_a_Z manages to survive in the lower right, I might eventually be forced to turn against Maharani, but I would much rather kill Haze (I don’t have any grudge against Haze, but we haven’t been collaborating much so killing them doesn’t feel like a betrayal).

I think yebellz is in a very strong position diplomatically. They have been very open to collaboration and have been asking if they can help somehow. Even though there hasn’t been much opportunity for yebellz to help me so far (except maybe on the coming move, where they might help ensure that the red stones are kept surrounded, which indirectly helps me), I still feel inclined to return the favor if the opportunity presents itself.

Whether it’s good or bad to be adjacent to lots of players (like yebellz is) is an interesting question. You have potential for more shared eyes with neighbours, and also higher chances of getting to kill one of your neighbours to claim some extra space. But on the other hand, there are more people that could benefit from killing you, so you will need more eyes to stay safe.

For example: If we assume red is eliminated soon, I only have two neighbours. It would be strange for someone other than those two neighbours to want to kill me, since my neighbours are the only ones who stand to gain territory when I’m killed. Therefore I expect that I could survive with just 3 eyes. On the other hand, yebellz has 4 neighbours right now. It doesn’t seem unlikely that at least 3 of them could eventually collaborate to capture yebellz. Making 4 eyes doesn’t look easy.

Since PiggyStardust has a big territory and only two neighbours, I think they have the strongest position on the board right now. However, the fact that yebellz has stronger alliances (as far as I can tell/guess) might turn out to be more important in the end.

[Groin]

These players notes confirm how insane a diplo. game can be.

[Vsotvep]

Here’s what has been submitted so far:

[belabacsijolvan]

Who will win? (Just to see the kibitz side as well)

• le_4TC
• PiggyStardust
• martin3141
• Gia
• Sanonius
• Haze_with_a_Z
• yebellz
• Maharani

le_4TC
PiggyStardust
martin3141
Gia
Sanonius
Haze_with_a_Z
yebellz
Maharani

[Groin]

C11 a bit too crucial to answer (but I did)

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 12

Gia

@Gia

Hm, I guess I’m going to be eliminated this round…

I’m wondering if everyone will just agree to kill my stones

Sanonius

@Sanonius

White wants me to help him eliminate Blue. I can’t easily kill Orange, but Blue is an easy target. The Endgame is starting, I believe, and I wonder if additional rules will enter vigour when all remaining players have living groups.

Oh wait, now I get it! Players can work together and fill multiple eyes at once! This changes everything, to be truly alive a group needs more liberties than there are players.

[shinuito]

@Sanonius

Oh wait, now I get it! Players can work together and fill multiple eyes at once! This changes everything, to be truly alive a group needs more liberties than there are players.

I did get the feeling that co-operative attacks weren’t being discussing unless it was against a player you’re strictly beside. I guess it made sense to at least round 7 or so until the initial fighting settled a bit.

I’d like to see temporary peace and a cooperative invasion by say Martin, Gia, Haze, Sanonius of the upper left. There’s two stones by themselves that are in 4-Atari that could be captured if the players don’t play a move to extend liberties.

[Vsotvep]

I believe it would be good strategy for the right side, to let Gia get a few stones on the left, so that removing the K8 group doesn’t eliminate them completely. Currently, filling K9 and J10 would eliminate Gia from the game.

[belabacsijolvan]

If I’d be le_4TC, Sanonius or martin, I’d make a deal with Gia, that I help her stay alive if she plays a stone at c11 and keeps it a secret that we had a deal. That way you can generate conflict between stardust and yebellz without openly going against nbto. And gia would have a chance to stay alive there with some some relief offenses from her secret ally(s).

[Vsotvep]

What was once such a peaceful game… Seems like these are savage vultures after all, they just needed a little poke.

---

Gia has opted to play J10 as a second move, in case E10 fails. Looks like a resignation. However, it seems quite lucrative to me for Sanonius, le_4TC to kill Haze’s stones while Gia is still filling up three of those liberties. With Gia’s help they can surely capture the whole group through some clever move collisions. Removing Gia just makes it harder for them to kill Haze, and does not yield much of a gain to anyone except Maharani. By removing Haze, Maharani gains new liberties and H10 can still be captured later to connect.

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz for Round 13

le_4TC

@le_4TC

I’m obviously happy with the development in the lower right. I tried to convince Sanonius to switch from attacking Martin to attacking Haze, and it seems like it worked. I do believe this is better for him, capturing Martin looked harder, so I just told him what I thought.

The hope now is that Sanonius eventually manages to capture Haze, with help from me and possibly Maharani. It would be preferable if Sanonius doesn’t get too much eye shape while doing so, since I’d like him to remain killable afterwards. So even though it might be possible to capture Haze this round (white N5 green K5 pink M4), I prefer Sanonius to struggle a little bit first. For instance, Martin might play J1 soon, which would severely reduce the pink eyespace (but the effectiveness of J1 is lessened if L3 is no longer on the board).

Since I’m not in a rush to play N5 or N6, I’m free to play L12 instead this move. Hopefully Maharani doesn’t see this as a direct attack on her, since I don’t really have another area to expand.

Maharani doesn’t have much eye-shape at all right now, but she could easily get an eye at J5 after Haze is captured, and maybe another one around J12. She also has lots of “shared eye-space” with the peaceful yebellz, so I expect her to survive for a long time (but this depends on yebellz staying peaceful).

Something I didn’t notice until looking at the board just now is the potential for [yellow F6, green G7] to cut yebellz off. I think both Piggy and Maharani have other priorities at the moment though, and it’s also too slow for yebellz to defend against it now (top area is more urgent).

Actually, maybe Martin is more likely than Piggy to want to help capture those light blue stones. [orange F6 green G7] would almost guarantee capture on the following move. It’s not too bad for me if that happens, but I would prefer that H3 stays alive for now to make Sanonius weaker. So I’m hoping that Martin starts by attacking Sanonius, before looking towards F6.

yebellz

@yebellz

So, if all goes as expected this round, @Gia should be eliminated and reading this Kibitz log in about 8 hours. If that is the case, thank you @Gia for taking over a very difficult position from a player that dropped out.

Haze’s play at B12 is quite provocative. Their communication has been very sparse this entire game, but with that move, I’ve demanded that they explain their intentions, which they say is to simply make use of what they perceived as empty space, while also claiming that they do not see me as an enemy. There is a fundamental inconsistency with such a position, since of course any play by Haze in a corner that Piggy and I intend to split will be viewed as hostile to both of us. Haze will certainly be my next target, and I hope that their main group is quickly captured to ensure their elimination.

I think the Blue move at B12 and the rogue rouge stone at C8 might actually help to galvanize the partnership between Piggy and I, giving us a joint mission to work toward, which hopefully ensures cooperation in dealing this common threat while also agreeably settling our border zone.

@yebellz

In the NBTO discussion thread, I suggested this plan

@yebellz

So if Maharani can eliminate Gia unassisted (with something like J8, J9, J10), then maybe that frees up the rest of us to possibly eliminate Haze.

What if we have something like this?
N5, K5
E10, N5, M4
E10, M4, K5
J8, J9, J10

Might this eliminate both Gia and Haze?

However, this course of action was not favored by @le_4TC

@le_4TC

I think you (yebellz) and Piggy should focus on the top left first. Haze will be eliminated eventually anyways, there is no need to rush it. By not capturing Haze immediately, we will allow Sanonius to become weaker first (for instance if Martin gets in a move like J1). This will benefit all of us who are adjacent to Sanonius.

It’s apparent that @le_4TC’s plans are to slow-walk the elimination of Blue with the aim of also weakening Pink, in hope that the Pink stones are eventually capturable as well in order to maximize room for future expansion.

Pink does not seem to be aware of these longer-term ambitions. Here is a message that I received from him:

@Sanonius

I already made a loose alliance with White to go against Haze, but Haze wants me to help him against Green. I don’t care who bites the dust first. However, my reasoning is that with Haze gone I can expand more than with Maharani gone.

Sanonius

@Sanonius

Now Blue wants my help against Green. I don’t know.

[shinuito]

The game is slowing down a bit these last few rounds

[Vsotvep]

Yes, Haze keeps forgetting to submit a move, but I also suspect some players are currently feeling a bit gridlocked

[Vsotvep]

Welcome @Gia, to the afterlife

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I feel like the players that are not yebellz and Piggy need to bury their differences for a moment and start attacking, or yebellz and Piggy will surely become the top two players. Haze’s single stone without follow-up only made their corner stronger, and with Gia gone, C8 is actually not a problem for Piggy.

[shinuito]

@yebellz

Thank you for taking over and playing a difficult position, @Gia.

Also welcome and well played to Gia, after being given a very tough position to start with. It looked very difficult from a normal go perspective and I imagine it would require godlike negotiation to convince the players around you to either peacefully settle or convince players around you not to capture, when they would immediately gain from it.

@Vsotvep

I feel like the players that are not yebellz and Piggy need to bury their differences for a moment and start attacking, or yebellz and Piggy will surely become the top two players.

Yeah it looks like Martin is also looking to capture Sanonius in order to get more space. I’m not even sure Sanonius will gain much even if they capture Haze. It does feel like piggy and yebellz are in very strong positions.

The kibitz logs are fairly interesting too

[Gia]

@shinuito

godlike negotiation

I don’t even have the mere mortal version.

It was weird, but fun.
Especially when I had to think not only where my moves might be the same with another player and think of alternatives for myself, but how other players are more probable to think the same way, and take that into consideration. Which I found a more interesting aspect than the actual negotiation.

[shinuito]

@Gia

Especially when I had to think not only where my moves might be the same with another player and think of alternatives for myself, but how other players are more probable to think the same way, and take that into consideration.

@Vsotvep

Sneak preview of what is likely to become the board position (without Sanonius’ move):

This round was amazing and entertaining.

@Vsotvep

Looks like Gia and le_4TC have submitted the exact same moves this round, meaning neither will get a move in…

Just to line up the same moves in the exact same order

[shinuito]

Actually that and effectively making Maharani pass in the most recent round

[Vsotvep]

It would’ve been brilliant if Maharani had made J10 their second move, which wouldn’t have been too unlikely