Kibitz Garden ☕ for the Second Diplomatic Go Game

[Vsotvep]

This is the kibitz thread for the second diplomatic go game.

Why not create it already, so I won’t forget to add anybody later.

Nothing to kibitz now, but there will be when the game starts, hopefully.

Please note that anything said in this thread will become public after the game ends.

[Groin]

Nice. I’ll make the first round of coffee then.

[Samraku]

Can I have hot chocolate?

[Groin]

With some Chantilly toping?

[Samraku]

I had to look that up; we’ve always just called it “Whipped Cream”. I made some homemade a few months ago, since I don’t like artificial whipped cream, and thought I’d try it homemade, and it was pretty good. I thought the homemade butter I made with the rest of the heavy whipping cream was better, though.

tfw the guy who has been nearly completely inactive in the cooking thread finds himself in a cooking thread conversation.

[Vsotvep]

And we’re off!

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Immediately @yebellz challenges my instinct to like his post…

[shinuito]

Second Kibitz Comment

The 13x13 board looks massive compared to seeing the 9x9 for diplomatic go so much previously

[Vsotvep]

I’m sure it will start to feel tiny in a few rounds

[Vsotvep]

My idea with the first move would be what yebellz suggested, to equally divide the corners. The big question is of course how to distribute the players. Will playing strength play a role in this?

Is it better to put strong players next to each other, or to spread them out through the board?
I think it is beneficial to the weaker players if the strong players are bunched up together, but beneficial to the stronger players if they are spread out, since they can probably squeeze the weaker players into elimination.

Is it better to form alliances with your neighbours, or with those far away?
On the one hand being allied with your neighbours gives you shared eyes and such, but on the other hand, not being in each other’s way can result in a healthier alliance. Being too far away probably brings incentive problems, since your ally wouldn’t be inclined to help you defeat your neighbours…

[Groin]

There is the go side and I can just agree, but there is the other side, like the art to convince or how each player see the other and it’s especially crucial in diplomacy.

For my small experience, having a couple for example, or some tighter relation between 2 players… Has a lot of consequences in a diplomatic game.

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 1

I’ll be throwing all the kibitz posts in one for each round, not to spam the kibitzers with too many messages.

bugcat

@bugcat

Greetings, audience!

This is my first ever “diplomatic game” of any kind, so I feel quite wary of my opponents, some of whom are more experienced. For the moment, I intend to approach the game cautiously and avoid being sucked into early alliances and pacts which may not be favourable to me. I’m especially suspicious of yebellz, since his polished presentation of national lore suggests a fairly high level of competence.

Right now, I’m producing a flag, because flags are nice~

I’ve noted that a “meta” has emerged, with the idea that we’ll pair up to share the corners. This was suggested by yebellz, who has started off by posturing in a leadership role. He’s sent me a PM which I haven’t yet read: I’ll do this before making any serious comment in the public thread. In theory the corner-sharing meta seems reasonable, but I don’t like where le_4tc has placed my stone in the first diagram – I’d prefer orange’s spot.

There seem to be several approaches available to me at the moment.

1. To comply with the corner-pairing meta
2. To “go rogue”, risking alienating myself
3. To propose a rival meta

I don’t think 2. is the way to go, but I may give 3. some thought.

@bugcat

I hope to get things off on a good footing with Haze by inviting him personally, and if he accepts then I intend to invite him into a non-aggression pact.

I could perhaps then use this relationship as a bargaining tool to make inroads with martin or other players.

@bugcat

Maharani has already been discussing in PMs, huh? Interesting… I wonder with who?

@bugcat

Haze has been a little pernickity in regards to how we share the corner. He seems to have seen through my “soft diplomacy” skills of a personal invite. I’ve decided to offer a compromise for now, but it’s an unstable one since the 3-3 will be left as a very big point. I may even immediately betray him… we’ll see.

I also have to consider building some safety nets in case the Haze agreement breaks down. I’m going to approach some other players, possibly with the idea of a wider alliance.

@bugcat

Testing the waters with Martin. In the best case situation, we could form a four-player alliance with Haze & kingkaio. However, my thought is that I may also want a secret “inner alliance” with Martin, with the idea that he can lend me support if I need to overcome Haze in the corner later.

@bugcat

At the moment, I’m following a loose plan with the aim of weaving together myself, Haze, martin, kingkaio, and le_4tc into an alliance bloc controlling play on the bottom and right sides.

So far I’ve established a non-aggression pact with Haze, I’ve received non-committal friendly sentiments from le_4tc, a cagey wait-and-see response from martin, and nothing at all from kingkaio.

I’ll use my move options to simply stake out my assumed position in the lower right.

1. J3. This is the spot I agreed with Haze, so if it’s disrupted I’ll be suspicious of him, and it could cause a complete breakdown of the NAP.
2. K3. This is taking a chance, because it would violate the neutral-space agreement, but I’m worried that if Haze betrays me, I’ll end up too far from the corner. And ofc, if this move is called up then Haze has probably betrayed me anyway.
3. L3. If both my first two moves have been guessed, then I’m under attack and I’d better bunker down.

@bugcat

My hope is that if I can draw le_4tc into an agreement with me and Haze, we can suppress Maharani. I also hope that a group chat setup will dissuade Haze & le_4tc from secret communication.

I have a feeling that le_4tc will commit to some level of intercourse.

Haze

@Haze_with_a_Z

Hello people of the spectator chat. Half of my plan this game is to just not die. If I live and can keep going, I don’t lose. At least in my book. I am probably gonna start somewhere on the corner and move to the side, but after that, I don’t really know yet.

It would probably be good to team with someone, but I might need a plan and a reason for that to happen.

Have a good time speccing yall

yebellz

@yebellz

Howdy, Kibitzers!

It’s Sky here! Smash that subscribe button!

I hope you are enjoying the game so far and found my opening post entertaining. I wish the other players enjoy the entertainment as well, and maybe that will make them more friendly. I really hope not to have to make any explicit enemies. Instead, it’ll be easier to justify aggression in response to the aggression by others. If others get tangled up in fights, it’ll make a peaceful approach profitable, by just building calmly.

I look forward to hearing all of your thoughts and analysis later. Hopefully after I claim victory, and not sooner.

[shinuito]

It does feel like 3-4’s are the way to fairly share the corner.

On the the other hand they could also move one further so that the 3-3 points is less contentious early on.

I’m imagining with 5-3 points, maybe you could two space jump along the side on your second move to grab a bit more space. (At lest the 3-3 won’t be a contact play)

It’s probably the way to make enemies in a neighbouring corner though

[shinuito]

Would something like this work to make images from the game board page?

Use CSS to Auto-Generate Image Thumbnails

It was talking about making thumbnails using clip. Maybe that’s just for images?

That or https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16325655/how-to-generate-thumbnail-images-of-html-pages/16327741 might have ideas.

[shinuito]

@Vsotvep

Immediately @yebellz challenges my instinct to like his post…

I think all the posts with flags and or cat pictures are hard not to like.

I actually didn’t expect the first round, where stones have yet to be played to be this entertaining.

[Vsotvep]

Kingkaio submitted their move before it was decided who should play in which corner. Considering that they posted they are too busy to read the thread, I would have personally opted for extending the deadline over carelessly playing the first move.

The same thing will happen as in last game with 李建澔 being the only one going against the discussed plan: it will end up strengthening another player. Last game that was probably le_4TC, but this game it will be even more pronounced. WIth kingkaio playing at L7, they have no space to make a base, making the right side very crowded. Simultaneously it is a huge boost to Martin, who will have no competition in the lower left.

And it’s strange, because if kingkaio had read the thread, they would know that L7 was going to be a bad move, squeezed between Haze and le_4TC (two players with experience as well!).

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 2

This post will contain the next batch of kibitz logs.

yebellz

@yebellz

Interesting first move by @kingkaio… I’m not sure if they’ve read the discussion or communicated with any of the other players before playing that. They have been silent to me.

It would be unfortunate if a player is too busy to really participate. We’ll have to work at adjusting to this. This has severely broken the symmetry in a way that will liekly foment conflict.

I’ve started my first group message with this:

Hello @PiggyStardust, @Maharani, @le_4TC,

I think the four of us have shown to be most receptive to cooperation and maintaining peace and joint prosperity. Hence, I would like to open this channel for discussion among all four of us.

Since we are all concentrated in the northern portion of the board, I propose that we name ourselves the Northern Board Treaty Organization ( NBTO ).

Moving forward, I think this channel will be useful to coordinate our plans on a larger scale. The unexpected first move by @kingkaio is a potentially destabilizing force, and I worry about the opportunity for ambitions that this hands to @martin3141.

Warmest regards,
Sky

@yebellz

The communication with @PiggyStardust and the rest of NBTO is going well. I plan to work with Piggy over the long run and hope that NBTO remains stable for a good while as well. We need a clear mission to work towards together, and I think, for now, that is countering the erratic behavior of kingkaio and concern over the possible unchecked growth of martin.

I look forward to reading your responses and lively debate after the game.

bugcat

@bugcat

I’ve just taken a look at the new board state. Of course, my main consideration is the unexpected placement of kingkaio (Orange).

1. Of all players, I’m in the greatest position to benefit from this. The area is very ripe for me to approach martin’s corner – I’m not sure whether to make my intentions known to anyone else privately. Martin has been a little frosty so far in communicating with me, so I don’t feel that I’m rupturing any agreement that already existed.
2. kingkaio’s invasion of the right side is very relevant to my current right-side bloc plan. It’s possible that Haze (Blue) will discuss with me how he intends to react, and I may from there be able to wedge myself into the discussion and also begin forging cooperation with le_4tc (White).

All-in-all, I think that I have an advantageous position and that I cannot afford to be slack in exploiting it. I would need a very good reason not to approach the lower left.

@bugcat

I’ve read all the messages from other players, and the results are good.

Haze has said that he would be comfortable with the idea of inviting le_4tc into the bloc, although how that’s done is going to have to be managed carefully, eg. whether we have an equal-sharing system or one like (me, Haze) – le4tc .

kingkaio has approached me with the intention of working together to attack Haze. I have no interest in accepting his offer, since his position on the side is weak. Instead, I’m sounding out Haze’s intentions with a view to my farming kingkaio for information, in turn to pass to Haze and even le_4tc to strengthen our alliance.

martin appears not to suspect my intentions. I think it may be best to clear my plan of approaching the lower left with Blue and White, so that I don’t appear as a “rogue” player who might be looking to turn on them.

First things first, I think, is to try to reel in le_4tc.

@bugcat

I’m going to try a simple dupe on martin. I will suggest that we avoid conflict by him playing C7 and me playing F3. Of course, I still intend to approach him.

@bugcat

The ruse appears to have been successful: martin will play C7 and I will approach, probably at E3.

I’m now going to try to dissuade Haze from taking the 3-3. I’m happy that KK is going to take some time up from White & Green.

martin3141

@martin3141

I believe I have good prospects to expand in the lower-left corner. I’m concerned that this might put me in the spotlight. If a player gets too strong, there is a risk of getting attacked by multiple collaborating opponents. So I’ll have to be cautious. I don’t believe this will happen as early as next round though, and I generally hope that the fight on the right side will keep the involved players busy for a while.

I wonder if Yebellz and PiggyStardust will team up. That would be a daring strategy that could allow both of them to attain strong positions.

However no matter what teams arise during the course of the game, it is likely that the players will eventually face each other. If you team up with a player next to you, there is constantly the possibility of a devastating betrayal.

@martin3141

bugcat suggested to build a framework together in the lower-left, by me playing C7 and they play F3.

At the same time I have heard from multiple sources that Haze_with_a_Z intends to attack kingkaio, which means I’m the only person to oppose bugcat on the lower side at the moment.

bugcat was very insistent on their proposal, and I felt pressured to agree, but I’m not planning to actually go along (if I did, I would likely get into a conflict with PiggyStardust too). I am expecting to collide with bugcat on F3 first, and then hopefully place a stone at E3 with my second choice.

I’m expecting to have to fight bugcat and hope that PiggyStardust doesn’t decide to collaborate with them in order to attack me simultaneously.

Special message from yebellz:

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I have an important question you kibitzers.

Do you pronounce NBTO like an acronym or initialism??

• Initialism (like En-Bee-Tee-Oh)
• Acronym (like Noboto or something else)

[Groin]

Well that will put quickly some action, not against my taste!
Having space alone can attract reaction, being many on same side may develop alliance play quicker…

Besides I am intrigued that yebellz and PiggyStardust didn’t play a weiqi formation (or better say did play a bad shape) in their corner, it seems they did agree or?

Martin: I would like to enclose…
I guess there are 7 players who don’t want