Lee Sedol Retires

I guess I’d have to agree with you in that it is, I suppose, a form of lying. I guess what they’re reporting on isn’t false though (again assuming the source is legit). So somehow saying that they’re lying also doesn’t feel completely true.

Anyway I guess I can’t really see a good reason as to why the stuff with the KBA is widely omitted.

It can be a form of lying, when what facts you choose to share build a false representation of a situation in the eyes of the person receiving the information. Assuming the quote is legitimate, they aren’t lying in this respect. But the article makes it sound as if he is quitting for this clear and singular reason, which is of course, simply not true.

It is even more frustrating when one of his most noteworthy accomplishments is defeating AI. To then only report the quote about GO AI and to state it is his reasoning for leaving, feels like it paints him as a man who is intimidated by AI. Or as a man who is so concerned with winning, that knowing there is something greater than him out there, he no longer sees value in the game of Go. As if winning was all that ever mattered.

So are they lying? Nope, most likely they are repeating a legitimate quote. But does their story paint a shallow picture of a multi-faceted situation? Yes. Does their reporting lead the average uninformed reader to view Lee in a potentially less than flattering way at the point of his retirement? I think so.

It is just frustrating, because Lee deserves the credit that is due to him. And I feel these stories misrepresent the animal that he has always been in the world of Go. Something I have admired and been inspired by. Furthermore, a few paragraphs doesn’t make much of a story. They are missing the chance to report a much more complex and interesting story. I see a missed opportunity for them, as well as poor decision making. Just a GRAWR moment for me :triumph:

2 Likes

It seems you guys might want to distinguish two types of lying:

misinformation – false information, the thing most typically associated with “lying”
and
deception – the act of getting someone to believe something that is false, typically done with misinformation, but can easily be done with false implications on otherwise true premises.

5 Likes

I tried… :upside_down_face:

<edit>
I’ve asked a few Korean women to comment over there on FB, and Cho Hye-yeon said Lee Sedols retirement has NOTHING to do with this.

Keeping my original comment for documentation, but hiding it now.
</edit>

Hidden comment

Comments to that Yike Weiqi FB post:

3 Likes

What is Yike Weiqi? Is it a reliable source for news?

Is there any other news coverage about a sexual harassment case regarding Lee Sedol?

This might be the sexual harassment case he’s talking about.

5 Likes

Interesting, I was not aware of that. So, it seems Lee Sedol was not at all involved in the incident, but rather may have just made public criticism of the KBA regarding it? Were there any other news coverage mentioning this sort of public criticism playing a role in his retirement?

Ok, so the incident is alleged to have occurred in 2009, but when was the KBA made aware of the allegations? The English article only seems to mention that the allegations were made public on a web-forum in April of 2018? Perhaps, the KBA was privately aware of the allegations much earlier. Is that the implication? That the KBA was aware of the issue earlier, but only acted when the allegations became public later?

3 Likes

Thanks. I didn’t remember that fact. So maybe Lee Sedol found the KBA’s overall efforts inadequate. There was another sexual misconduct scandal in which a Go player installed a spy camera in a women’s bathroom. Maybe there were other incidents that contributed to a larger pattern. Whatever the general situation was, it motivated fifty women Go players to send the KBA a joint statement about it. So maybe Lee Sedol reacted more to the totality of circumstances.

4 Likes

So the plot thickens then? We now have the AI story as well as the KBA money situation, and now a sexual harassment situation as well. Seems to me that the KBA is fighting off several different things at once. I can’t be sure of what is going on for sure with only what has been said here as a reference, but it does seem to me that this is quickly becoming a far more complex situation than we had expected, or indeed wanted.

It makes me sad that such things have to blight the world of Go, to be honest, but it was inevitable that this kind of tabloid nonsense would eventually come to the modern world of GO.

In regards to what @Mulsiphix1 said about the lying and so on, I agree entirely with his stance on lying. Lying can indeed take on many forms, and with the way that information was presented, to omit the other factors in this, is tantamount to lying, by omission.

3 Likes

It would seem that the circumstances around Lee Sedol’s retirement are a bit messier and unpleasant than initial appearances. I wish this thread was more about a tribute to his career rather than the unfortunate affairs that played a role in ending it.

For me, one of the first ways (and I think probably the first) that I heard of Lee Sedol was his famous broken ladder game:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?LeeSedolHongChangSikLadderGame

I think it is wonderful for showing what can be possible with go.

10 Likes

To be fair, that’s exactly what the first 40-50ish comments here were until a handful of posts from a different thread were moved here that were talking about the western media reporting he was leaving because ai was too strong.

3 Likes

I don’t think Go has anything to do with this situation. People doing things to other people, people speaking up about those things, other people supporting those who are speaking up, other people trying to cover up or minimalize claims being made, etc… These same individuals might all enjoy bike riding, video games, crossword puzzles, picnics on the beach, etc… But those activities have nothing to do with the heart of the matter being discussed here.

 

One of my favorite quotes is “All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing.” If Lee Sedol is in fact retiring partially because of how the KBA is mishandling these sexual harassment/rape cases, then it is further proof of what a good man he is <3.

4 Likes

Another great part of Lee’s career was his rivalry with Gu Li, which reached its pinnacle in a jubango (10-game challenge match) in 2014.

It was a real joy following this jubango through GoGameGuru’s coverage. Although GoGameGuru is now unfortunately defunct (and its domain name has been taken over by a spammer), I was able to find the old coverage archived on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine:

This page contains working links to other archived pages, two for each game (one to announce the result and a second to provide more detailed commentary). The videos were behind a paywall (BadukTV), so those are not archived and probably not available anymore.

The people behind GoGameGuru also published a book that thoroughly analyzes the jubango as well as covering the other games between Lee Sedol and Gu Li: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Relentless

Edited to add: there is also this YouTube video that they released to promote the jubango

5 Likes

Hey all.

I’ve asked a few Korean female Go pros to comment on Yike Weiqi’s allegation over there on FB, and Cho Hye-yeon said Lee Sedols retirement has NOTHING to do with “the association’s slow pace in dealing with a sexual harassment case” as Yike Weiqi had alleged.

I’ve also asked Yike Weiqi for sources for their allegation, but no answer yet, and I’ve edited my above comment to reflect this new information (resp. lack thereof).

So … please accept my apology, I shouldn’t have posted that screenshot here, given that it was just a rumour. I simply assumed they’d be much better informed than I am.

<edit>
Oh, and because it was asked: Yike Weiqi is, to my knowledge, a Chinese Go server.
</edit>

11 Likes
2 Likes

That is awesome. Thank you for sharing S_Alexander!

One thing I love about Lee is when he stares at the board. He always has a “thinking” face that has become iconic for me. While so many of us see a game of Go, I am convinced that his penetrating gaze sees endless possibilities, variations, and potential. Literally his face could sell me on starting Go, if I wasn’t already enthralled :hugs:

1 Like

Forget the Go board, Nakamura Sumire stares directly into her opponents soul

13 Likes

Is this just this one picture, or does she seriously stare down the people she plays against?

2 Likes

In the videos I’ve seen of her playing, this is what she looks like ~80% of the time.

4 Likes