LinuxGooo's critique of 4.1

Continuing the discussion from Calling all beta testers - help us get 4.1 ready!:

sounds like a lot of blabla

I encourage you to do some research on the software industry and our varying release strategies before you critique them. You’re comparing apples to oranges.

What about this isn’t step by step? We’re only introducing a couple new things (and they’re all related) in 4.1, that’s about as step by step as you can get :wink:

This is slated for the teaching tools in 4.2

It was a dependency for creating the tutorial, which I wanted to have in for Learn Go Week. Tsumegos are also a great learning tool and figured it’d be good for Learn Go Week.

Wrong, that’s our second greatest weakness, one we are going to be focusing on in 4.2. Our greatest weakness is that brand new players to the game are still unable to pick up the game without significant effort researching the game before hand. The tutorial system and Tsumego is the starts of trying to solve that.

Keep in mind our first and foremost goal is to grow the Go community, this means catering first and foremost to players who have never seen the game before. There is a lot to that equation, namely that supporting higher level players is a dependency on supporting new players because they bring community and support for the low level players. Higher level players have a whole lot of other requirements and desires (excellent review tools, access to even higher level players, and just about every other feature on the site). It’s certainly a chicken and the egg scenario and we need to provide for both - but that’s the key, we do need to provide for both. So what you consider dire and important might not match up with what is actually dire and important for the community in the long run.

I think you misunderstand our role here. We are not here to strictly be competitive to other servers or services. We are the most discoverable go server in the western world, as such we need to be the most beginner friendly and the most accessible to new players. We need to provide a complete package not just a place to play go. Now of course we also want to be awesome and by virtue of being awesome, we hope to be an enticing and useful place for players of all skill levels, in the near future a great place for teachers to utilize for teaching students of all levels, and in general just a great Go resource. But it’s the whole package, we’re not just catering to SDK’s and Dans, we’re trying to cater to beginners, ddks, sdks, dans, and yes eventually pros, but this is a gradual process and we attack the most urgent problems across the board so as to keep the community as a whole healthy and growing.

And you look at the larger picture :wink:


While I do like the idea of having a tutorial and tsumego collection to cater for beginners- and I agree we do need to foster a beginner-friendly environment- LinuxGooo does raise some valid criticisms. LinuxGooo is concerned that without an audio feature, many teachers and students will be put off of OGS because of the difficulty in communication using only written chat, and thinks this feature should be in place for LGW, when presumably there will be an influx of new players/users (assuming we advertise efficiently =)). I understand that it’s not possible to do everything at once, but that is why prioritizing is important.

Since the devs have already invested a lot of time and effort into getting the tut and tsumego collection up, you’re already committed to making that the best it can be in time for LGW, and that’s understandable, but I think the mic feature is probably equally important. A lot of people are used to listening to lectures, and many, especially those for whom English is not their mother tongue, will find it difficult to keep up with a written “lecture.” Personally, I’ve gotten used to reading reviews and such because OGS was my first experience with everything Go, but even I find it difficult to follow along in the chat, watch the variations, and read the move comments all at once. The flip side though is that just having a mic feature doesn’t automatically mean the lecture would be recorded, so a mic feature would need to come hand-in-hand with a recording feature (or else only the people actually present during the lecture/review would benefit from it, and they’d need to stay the whole duration, which I think beats the point of the Internet).


@herbie , @LinuxGooo should hire you as a translator / filter :slight_smile:

I’ll see what I can do to restore the basic mic functionality we had before 4.0 in time for LGW.


haha, it’s that easy?
Knowing linuxgooo, I immediately knew why he was complaining about the tsumego system.
He was just disappointed that you chose to spend time on something else than the mic feature.

About the tsumego system, I hope I can soon use it as a quick reading drill each time I login.
I personally would like to have quick sessions of problems, with a timer and no answer. You get a score at the end of the session.

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I strongly disagree with much of what @LinuxGooo has said, particularly his stance against the software update cycle, but why was his post in the other thread flagged and now “temporarily hidden”?

His may be an unpopular, dissenting opinion, but it seemed civil enough and it doesn’t seem to warrant censorship via flagging. I would think that the flagging mechanism is meant to mark stuff like hate speech, personal attacks, spam/advertising, inflamatory rants, etc., not to suppress contributions to the conversation that you merely disagree with.

By the way, this question is meant to be directed at the broader community, hopefully to get us to think about how we conduct our collective discourse. I commend @anoek, who I think has acted appropriately as part of the OGS team, for countering the suppression of @LinuxGooo’s comments by replicating and addressing them in this new thread.

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Note that we didn’t delete it but it was voted to be hidden as off-topic which it was… It had almost no substantive feedback on the implemented features which is what we were asking for there.

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Note also that “temporarily hidden” due to the comment being flagged as off topic by several users just means the user has to actively click “View hidden content”, which I think is a nice compromise between letting everyone voice their opinions and letting the community “turn down the volume” of comments from people who are being disruptive and not constructively contributing to the conversation.

You won’t ever see the suppression of thoughts or speech on this forum, but if you’re going to stand on a soap box and preach, start a new thread to do so if it’s not on topic with the thread that inspired your speech.

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Also note it wasn’t just moderators that flagged him or anything, anyone with “basic user” or greater privileges can flag a post, once so many flags have been accumulated it’s automatically hidden… this is what happened

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Also also note: If the post had been added as a separate critique, rather than on a post requesting feedback for specific features, it would not have been flagged. @LinuxGooo has posted things like this before without repercussion.

Dropping the critique in the middle of the feedback post was quite boorish.

EDIT: Example

Also also also note, this site is more and more bad ass every time I get on. What genius to balance board moderation with freedom to post AND put it in the users control.

New to me. Flame on.
P. S. A troll would be proud of this thread.

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[quote=“herbie, post:4, topic:1778”]
many, especially those for whom English is not their mother tongue, will find it difficult to keep up with a written “lecture.”
[/quote]I disagree, I’m quite sure that anybody who is not a native speaker will find it easier to read English than to understand it when it’s spoken, much the more when it is not spoken slowly and clearly articulated like it happens in English lessons.

Greetings, Tom
(German but I get by quite well in English, I think)


I think Linux and the Talos priest from Skyrim have a lot in common. :wink:

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That is true in general, however when a verbal lecture is accompanied by pointing to/highlighting/marking relative points simultaneously, eg, the lecturer says “white’s move here” and uses a markup tool to point out the move, it’s easier to follow along and quicker that typing the same thing and then marking the position or vice versa- the latter method leaves room for other people to comment/ask questions inbetween, causing some to lose the thread of the conversation. Not to mention that when everyone is writing their comments comments can get interrupted in general, and the lecturer’s comments can get lost in the audience’s.

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This is part of what I was also going to say in my initial post but didn’t have time.

While LinuxGooo’s comment was tangential to the topic at hand, it was not completely off-topic. Part of the off-topicness, I think, is due to a language/cultural barrier at work here: LinuxGooo believed he was giving a valid and important critique that was crucial to the update, but perhaps phrased it too strongly. Many others probably saw it as an attack/ “a lot of blabla” (as someone said above) and flagged his post, leading LinuxGooo to think he was being intentionally censored by the OGS team. I do agree that he probably should have replied as a new topic rather than replying to the original topic (and I told him so).

However, I think this raises an important issue that any online community needs to consider, namely the need to be understanding and open-minded and give people the benefit of the doubt. This isn’t the first time I’ve noticed misunderstandings and disagreements cropping up because of someone misinterpreting someone else’s words, and the underlying reason has generally been a language barrier. There’s no easy way to avoid that, far as I can see, but I think this is a good opportunity for everyone to remember that when we all come from different backgrounds and have different first languages what we say in English might not mean exactly what we wanted it to mean, and act accordingly.


We’re looking to fast track 4.1 in time for Learn Go Week, so help us find any major bugs before we release

This is the first line in that thread. There’s nothing wrong with criticism, but the topic of that thread was quite specifically about finding bugs.


Just wanna say ouch xD I don’t think you need high leveled players to have good teachers I think levvo and xhu98 are better then most high level teachers :smiley: especially proven through this learngoweek (meant to quote linuxgooo on that btw)


hahahahahahahahahaha franzisa almost died laughing in class

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