OGS Joseki Dictionary is in beta

How should a pass appear visually in the position description?

.Q16.R14.–.O17

^^ I guess that is tenable?

Tentatively tenable.

As for the source vs attribution… I still say ‘source’ should be checkable, so basically we’d treat them the same as references. Maybe someone made an error transcribing them, maybe there was an error already present and the referenced material has been updated,… it would be nice to have.

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Published books can be uniquely referenced by ISBN at least, and there are at least various sites for looking up book details for ISBNs.

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So the question is dangling out there… should “sources” be required to have “something”… and how strict should that “something” be? A URL? A URL or an ISBN?

Note that in the current “model” of OGS Joseki Dictionary, contributors are “known and approved” so they can be expected to follow policy sensibly, lessening the need for strict program checks on these things.

This raises also the broader question of what the policies will be as well. For example, I was already asked “what’s the difference between ‘Ideal’ and ‘Good’?”. That one probably deserves it’s own thead :slight_smile:

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I like that we’ll be able to see changes made. See how it’ll evolve.

It’ll be a lot of work to fill everything out before it matches something like josekipedia. And very few high-level people really understand joseki.

It would be nice to have keywords linked to the final positions of a sequence and to have an automatically updating summary of those keywords for the first (root) move in the sequence.

Say you want to play a certain move and the dictionary gave you a preview of all recorded outcomes, for example:

R14:

  • average number of moves per sequence (15)
  • even position (40%)
  • good sequence (30%)
  • black gets right side (25%)
  • black gets top (20%)
  • black gets outside (50%)
  • white got tricked (5%)

I reckon that would be way more helpful than any “winrate” estimations.

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I am not sure I would require url or ISBN. Sometimes the source is not clearly referanceable, but still the position should be mentioned. Wrong or “mistake” moves would be even harder to reference, but are good to be able to show them to new players.

AIs are also hard to reference exactly, but everyone is now copying their “josekis”…

I would just trust the selected users to reference the source “reasonably”. Otherwise we will just have nonsensical URL that do not lead anywhere, just because the variation could not be submitted without.

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There was a middle line I had considered which was that if you wanted an official “source” attached to the position then you had to supply the URL. That would not rule out variations without sources - they could still happen.

But even so, I tend to think that authors can be relied upon to do a reasonable job without being “forced” :slight_smile:

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This is awesome!

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Including a source would be nice. For example, it would provide a place to start if you are interested in the nuances of the position. Just claiming “a Nick Sibicky video” is worthless and would make it nearly impossible to find it in the hundreds of hours of content. This could easily be handled by providing a citation and URL if possible. This information could allow at least one other person to validate the source and claim as well.

Bad source formatting.

Nick Sibicky

38 Basic Josekis

Good source formatting

Early AI preferred joseki, Nick Sibicky Go Lecture #328 - NEW vs OLD 3-3,12:00

K11 The Elementary Go Series Volume Two: 38 Basic Josekis, page 36
K11 The Elementary Go Series Volume Two: 38 Basic Josekis, Ch. 2

I don’t think it has to be perfectly standardized formatting, but including a reference source is really useful. To me, this is one of the shortcomings of Josekipedia which is a bit messy. I have the beginnings of a personal joseki dictionary referenced like this since there is not one out there.

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At the moment the “design” is for two layer of source reference:

  1. The “organisation level” source.

This is “Nick Sibicky”.

The primary purpose for tagging positions with this is so that you can filter by it.

“Show me only joseki from Nick Sibicky” is something you can do (when there are some entries from Nick Sibicky!)

  1. A specific reference on the position, within the description.

For example, my in-jest entry for Tengen.

Here you see that the “Source” is Dwyrin, so it will show up when you filter by “Dwyrin”, and the specific link is in the description.

EuG

For videos, my preference is to also include a timestamp. Spending time filtering your way through a 1-3 hour video just to find the one position and its explanation can be easily avoided by including timestamps. Obviously, if the video is a couple of minutes long, then it is not that useful.

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I just want to stick my two cents out which are that it would be incredibly helpful to have an option to practice either a specific joseki or set of joseki on a randomly rotated and mirrored board. I am not aware of anywhere to do this exactly online with the closest being something like Joseki Farm.

(If something like this /does/ exist please somebody tell me!)

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I think the mobile app tsumego pro has these options.

The “Play” mode offers “the beginning” of this.

It honours the filter, so you’ll only “Play” sequences that you have filtered for.

Rotating and mirroring is on the list, but “non trivial amount of work to be done”.

User-selected set of joseki to “play” is not something I’ve thought about, though I guess it makes some sense. The user-interface for selecting that set is pretty challenging though.

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Since we now have the pass option, could it be an idea that if you pass on the first move rather than make it a mistake, which it would be, can we have it lead to something like the placement of handicap stones on the board.

I don’t play with handicap stones all that much, and when I do (like in some over the board competitions) I don’t necessarily play with all of 2-9 stones. So it could just be handy as a reference sheet :slight_smile:

[Optional] You could even then throw in some handicap joseki if you really wanted, given that with 9 stones on the board, any corner approach is technically loosely pincered.

I imagine people will click pass on the first move just to see what it says out of interest. I mean I did.

Edit: I mean it actually says “Don’t pass on the first turn, it’s rude.” but it also says its a mistake down the bottom.

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Just noting that the pass-on-the-first move entry in the Beta dictionary is my silly joke at demonstrating a pass in action.

I totally agree that in the real thing, there may be a more useful use for that position, and a more helpful description :slight_smile:

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I thought it was funny anyway. It was just a random thought that I had while looking at the new features/updates.

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Thankyou! Made my day :slight_smile: (Rare that people get my jokes!)

Could we perhaps change “pass” to “Tenuki”? Seems to make more sense to me in the Fuseki.

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