Prevent SGF download until game conclusion

I will do what you wish because its order of a Ruler,
but not because its assistance which is incorrect.

I created assistance.txt document, which has text:

End game only after 2 passes

I will read this outside information during game and will use or not use resign button with using that outside information.
Is that assistance?

Or I can write program that able to copy game in real time and which will tell me - did opponent passed or not?
Is that assistance?

Well let’s just suppose (optimistically) more pro games end up on ogs and you’re late to the party and wanted to download 40,60,80 moves rather than put them in by hand :slight_smile:

This wouldn’t be me doing it. I still struggle with downloading ai’s, except gnu go. Gnu go was easy to setup :stuck_out_tongue:

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I think this is the first time I actually grasped the concept, thank you.

I have periods with limited internet access and find very useful to download sgfs of my current correspondence games to think about them offline.

I am with @flovo. If people want to cheat, they will. Playing online requires the assumption that your opponent is honest or not caring too much at all (since at the end of the day the strength of your opponent is measured by its rank, which he acquired by whatever means he uses to play).

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There are applications to play on OGS from mobile. I guess they may have better score estimator. Are users of these applications are cheaters?

Because our SE is bad or because mobile is better? Or because wild guessing brings a discussion further?

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3nkaut

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An easy solution is to enable download for observers. Hosting AI analysis on the OGS website and allowing me to download SGF’s of in progress games makes the barrier to cheating about 3 seconds of work.

It is not outside assistance.
It is just assistance.
“Outside” of the game… You, your opponent, the board and the stones.
You are allowed to talk to your opponent, even give them advice.

But you did not write the AI you are referencing for your predictions and you are not playing against it… So it is pretty easy to make the point with 100% certainty that you are using outside input to effect your in game choices… And that is expressly forbidden.

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The question of “features of 3rd party apps” is an interesting one - it is a “sleeping issue” that could bubble up at some point if someone writes an App that “crosses a line”.

What if a 3rd party OGS app offered AI analysis in game? Pretty obviously, using that feature would be cheating.

What if a third party app has a much better score estimator - that delivers actual margin during play for example. Well, I think this also would fall into the category of cheating.

Fortunately, the author of the current app has been very cooperative and understanding of this point. When OGS disabled the score estimator on “analysis disabled games”, he responded quickly to our request that the app also does this.

Fundamentally, just because some third party application has a feature, this doesn’t mean that the feature is “OK”. If your computer has AI installed, or your phone has an App that helps you play, in both cases you aren’t allowed to use that while playing on OGS.

If someone demonstrates that the score estimator of the current app is already better in some way than the OGS estimator, then we would have to cross the bridge of whether or not that is “endorsed” or “cheating”.

We face will the same problem when the OGS score estimator is improved - something that is “in the works”, and this topic is already under discussion: how to manage a “better estimator”.

EuG.

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I think it was mentioned earlier that you can just log out or go into private browsing and become an observer?

With regards to

say for example in a game I’ve uploaded a good while ago from go4go of Ke Jie vs Mateusz Surma - Mateusz Surma vs. Ke Jie

So I can run the ai analysis on this game, I think Surma resigns, so in principle there’s still moves left to play. It’ll analyse it up to the end of the sgf. I don’t know how you’d add new moves and get the ai to comment on them though? If you add moves it goes into analysis mode, and those moves disappear if you refresh right? So the only way I can imagine you getting the ai to suggest a move after you play a move is to re-upload the game every move and run the analysis which seems like a big hassle. If that’s the case, you could still do this even if the sgf download during the game was disabled…

(As an aside, I think that sgf upload is a little bugged, it has a leela review from a while ago, which if I click it I think all the new ai interface disappears, and it’s confusing to get it to show up again. I think it might even restart the katago analysis each time if I click the button on the sidebar…)



Anyway it actually doesn’t make a difference to me. I was just trying to come with a particular scenario where it might be handy.

I think Fabricio is the one that has a real reason to still want it available, although you could also ask them to just input the moves by hand into whichever review program they use.

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