Prevent SGF download until game conclusion

So I just happened to notice that I can download SGF’s of games in progress, then upload them to my private SGF library and analyze them with AI. This seems a little too invitational to cheating in my opinion.

Should SGF downloads be blocked while a game is in progress? This probably doesn’t affect live games as much, but it certainly makes cheating on in progress correspondence easier.

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There are enough ways to cheat, even if you cannot download the sgf. Replying the game on Lizzie is easy enough, especially in correspondence.

For games with analysis disabled, the sgf download is disabled as well.

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2 posts were split to a new topic: Make “analysis disabled” the default

While it is true that there are many ways to cheat, I agree with the OP that it would be a lot less “invitational” if SGF were not available until the end of the game.

What are the arguments for having it available in-game?

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I have script that only able to tell “yes” or “no”
When I think I should resign and don’t waste time of opponent, I ask it
If I have less that 2% chance, it tells yes

I think it should be implemented on OGS before disabling sgf download
Also, guests(watchers) may wish to know who is winning

This is outside assistance, and is not allowed.

Please don’t do this: you are required to make your own judgements, or use the score estimator that is provided if analysis is turned on.

The Terms of Service specifically disallow computer assistance with the game in play.

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its not assistance, its only a question of wasting time of others. I think its more important than existence of score estimator

Actually, being told by something else whether the game is lost is assistance.

Just yesterday there was a discussion in a facebook Go group (*) about an interesting game where the person who was winning resigned because they thought they were losing.

This judgement is part of the game - getting outside assistance to make that decision is cheating.

(I appreciate that you went to the trouble to make it a yes/no answer to reduce the information you are getting, but unforunately any outside infromation at all is not allowed).

(*) which I can’t find now because … facebook :S )

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Assistance is when you become to place stones differently with outside information. (Such as default score estimator)
If both players will have my function, it will be fair in all senses.
My rank will not change because of it also. Because I may become just ALWAYS play until pass and glicko is smart enough.
So I don’t believe that that is assistance.

I think an argument could be made that it might be good to keep the option for observers (which is especially used during relays) so people can feeed the positions into their engines and follow along with the pros or whoever. In which case however it is then way too easy to just open the game in incognito…

But I think this might be the main situation where people would miss the function.

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RE @stone_defender “If both players will have my function, it will be fair in all senses.”

If both players have access to leela analysis and make the best moves reccomended by the engine, then that must be fair as well.

But that is not the game. Outside assistance is still cheating. Can you please discuss this in another chat thread so this one can stay focused on the discussion of SGF download. :slight_smile:

flovo, another proof, that this is not assistance, I will just resign with 50% chance

its focused on on sgf download because without it I will always play until pass and waste time of everyone

with MY information its impossible to make move differently and impossible to have another rank
The only difference is waste of time.

Like @Eugene said, judging when to pass or resign is a part of the game. Your tool changes how you play. It is outside assistance.

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Life is how I live, not how I stop living. I gift to everyone additional time by using this tool, it will be evil to do otherwise.
Go is how you play. By how many points you win is not important. By same reason, its not important on which move game ends. My opponents who wish to play mini game of resigning themselves can do it anyway (when I have more than 1% chance).

By the way, when someone lose by timeout when I slightly behind, I always consider myself lost.

Whatever dude. You aren’t saving the world by cheating but if it makes you feel good then I guess you are right. You can play however you want and “not stop living” :roll_eyes:

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@stone_defender: The most harmful thing that your script does, is that it turns off your own judgement. The only way to learn how to judge a position, is by doing it a lot (and making mistakes, which the AI can point out afterwards). Right now, the person who loses most from your use of a script is probably you yourself.

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It’s clear that @stone_defender’s motivation is consideration: he wants to spare people games that go beyond when the result is decided. This is very considerate, and I love opponent’s like this: I personally like it when the opponent resigns when the game is lost, instead of playing out the dame.

However, outside assistance of any sort is not allowed. It’s as simple as that. The motivation doesn’t matter - you simply aren’t allowed to do it.

In this specific case, your consideration has to be based on your own judgement.

In general, this is probably a good example of why sgf download should be disabled during the game: it is open to abuse, well intentioned or otherwise.

Quick question, when people relay games, there isn’t usually two players actually playing and the game doesn’t technically end right? Just the relayer says B wins by resignation etc.

So wouldn’t this just be a separate case? Like always allow download for demo/review boards.

On the other hand, suppose there is a pro event happening on ogs (say if the transatlantic tournament came back or pro vs bot game etc) then what if there’s just a special flag/setting that moderators can allow sgf download just for that game (during and after)?

Sure, for demo review boards there’s no argument for disabling it.

For pro event - typically someone is relaying it, and others are copying it as it goes into their AI of choice, so SGF download isn’t really a factor as far as I’m aware…