Simple Lentear(Go) Rules

Yes, but that is only in rare cases where one player runs out of time on their clock!

Why would it even need to be used after a player runs out of time? Doesn’t the other simply win, making it unnecessary?

It’s meant to disincentivise playing moves in a losing position just to make the opponent timeout. The opponent can just secure their territory by creating eyes all over it so all your moves in there territory is suicide, but it’s only possible to properly defend parts in that territory with dead stones in all cases if there’s a rule in which things like snapbacks are automatically captured.

Well, Ing does technically mandate a fixed number of stones, but I don’t think that limit would actually be enforced, since having a finite limit on the number of stones that could be placed on the board could result in some pathological situations. I think the stone limit with Ing rules is merely a suggestion to aid counting via the fill-in method that they suggest.

Besides the situation mentioned by @ArsenLapin1, here is another odd thing that could happen with your rules, if the stones are limited.

Let’s just suppose the players take turns filling up the board like this, with no captures occurring. After 348 turns, they have each placed 174 stones on the board. Now, it is Black’s turn and they have no stones remaining:

What do the players do now? Does White continue filling the dame space? Who is winning in this game? What is the exact score?

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What’s inelegant about pass stones?

If anything, they constitute a simple way to pass without having to say ā€œI passā€ in a particular language.

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Katago was trained using both chinese and japanese rules, and using 6.5 komi black’s winrate is 48% using japanese rules, where as using chinese rules with the same komi gives black a 55% winrate (because of how chinese rules work there’s no real difference between 6.5 and 5.5 komi)

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Yes, that is true, but ING rules include passes, so theirs technically no limit to the number of moves you could make. And the main problem is that passes affect the score in territory rulesets.

Under Lentitear rules, Area gives + 5 for white, Territory gives + 4.5 for white. The special Scoring method also gives + 4.5 for white.

Unlike in other rulesets, white’s stones aren’t dead under Lentitear, because in Lentitear black doesn’t have any any stones left with which to capture white.

What does Katago think for Japanese rules in 19x19 under a Komi of 6 and a Komi of 7? Are either of them as close to 50% as 48% from 6.5?

That’s somewhat true, however I don’t imagine pros would at the end of every game be physically handing over stones to their opponents prisoners lid on badukTV any time soon. So it’s probably be better just to do away with passes altogether . . .

I’m really curious about the resigning pros in the ING sponsored event. I can’t find information about it anywhere. Which Go association were the pros affiliated with? There must be a reason as to why they hate pro-rata that that much.

All win rates are from black’s perspective
Japanese Rules:
Komi 6 : 52%
Komi 6.5: 48%
Komi 7: 43%
Komi 7.5: 39%

Chinese Rules:
Komi 6: 56.3%
Komi 6.5: 56.9% (yes the win rate does actually go up a fraction of a percent for some reason)
Komi 7: 48%
Komi 7.5: 38%

Reminder that in chinese rules you can only get a tie with odd komi, so 6 komi is no different from 6.5 komi and that might be why the winrate stays exactly the same (actually a tiny bit higher)

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Chinese rules have a major obstacle unless they accept draws . . .

I see, so correct Komi is 6 after all, and Katago is 2% away from God-level play. I guess Katago thinks that a komi of 5.5 under Japanese rules give something like 55%?

You can try out for yourself on www.zbaduk.com :slight_smile:

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Okay, I searched it up and According to AI opinions on "fairest" komi by board size • Life In 19x19 Under Japanese rules KataGo thinks Komi 5.5 gives 56% for black, although in that table it also gives 49% for 6.5 komi and 45% for 7 so maybe lightvector ran KataGo slightly differently

Keep in mind that Katago has grown significantly stronger since August 2020 (date of the thread), meaning white now wins 1% more often than before using 6.5 komi and 2% more than before with 7 komi. As katago grows stronger and stronger black’s winrate will continue to drop when komi > 6, although for now 6.5 komi is still pretty even.

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Amazing that Katago is still getting stronger . . .

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I’m not a good enough go player to know whether these rules work well, but I can make two simple observations and raise a question.

  1. ā€œlentearā€ is not a common English word; I would recommend finding an English phase to name this rule set.

  2. The term ā€œgroupā€ defined here is usually called a ā€œstringā€, not a ā€œgroupā€. The term ā€œgroupā€ is usually used for a set of stones of the same color that are connected by links (single skip, diagonal, double skip, small knight’s move, large knight’s move).

My question is, have these rules also been checked for working for 9x9 boards?

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It’s actually not just his name for the ruleset, but also his suggestion as an alternative name for go itself.

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I deliberately wanted to avoid using a common English word.