Starting from what rank do you think a player should start to realize a lost game and have the courtesy to resign. By lost game i mean a game that’s into move 200 and 30-40 pts down, and sometimes BOTH players are filling dames.
I mean if you are starting and are just 16k and don’t know what you are doing, this is acceptable. But I have played a few players who were 10k, and still does that. I find this very annoying, but i also don’t want to ask the other guy to resign, as this is even more rude.
Usually i just keep playing stupid moves to show him that “hey buddy” gesture, as i have lots of buffer.
I just fill dame and pass. Some players like to play out lost games. Not sure why, but I’ve had solid SDK opponents that went to scoring on a game lost by 20+ points.
There are some rulesets that you have to fill dame in order to score (I believe japanese is like this). Many skip this online because the computer will score it anyway.
…But as far as resigning; I think it only matters once you’re also really good at counting. whatever rank that may be at.
As opposed to playing stupid moves, you can always pass to moves you don’t have to answer. That way you’re gaining an extra point each time.
yes, knowing when to resign takes a lot of skill. I often see pro games that end in mid game that I don’t have a single clue why.
But the games i am talking about are truly dead games into move 200 or something and with a score estimator, there could be no mistake.
the funny thing is, they would keep playing, and then when you pass, they pass. its like they don’t want to “initiate” the scoring process, even though they know the game is dead, but when i pass, they happily comply.
One reason might be for the endgame practice even knowing a game is lost. As long as your opponent is happy to keep playing (i.e. is not passing) then that could be taken as a sign that you can keep going. But as soon as your opponent passes then they are signalling they would like the game to finish.
Or maybe just hoping for a turnaround somehow. I’ve certainly managed to throw away games by losing 20 to 60 points with some endgame mistakes!
In my experience counting at that level of accuracy might be common around 3kyu or stronger. Anything weaker than that, then you should not expect much. But in the end, if someone wants to play it out until the end, then that is their right to do so. You even see in pro-games sometimes.
If the score estimator is giving a definite result, you don’t need to be 3k to recognise that…
There is an underlying assumption in this thread that, all that matters is the final result. Win, lose or draw. Go is more beautiful than that. Even once the result is secured:
- There may be local positions of interest to a player.
- One or both players may enjoy playing as if for points, squeezing the most out of the endgame.
- The way in which the dames are filled can have aesthetic value.
[Edit] I have on occasion, offered my resignation in chat rather than just resigning, in case my opponent wished to continue for whatever reason.
resign is part of the game. one has to start practicing it and has that concept in mind and shows the opponent he/she understands it. a little sooner or later or even play out all the way is not that important.
i dont know if i agree or disagree with “it is more rude to ask opponent to resign”, so in one occasion i resigned, lol
is it even more rude to resign when you are winning 100 points on board?
At what point should a game be understood to be lost? Sure, there are obvious extreme situations, but where does one draw the line for close cases?
When we’re playing against someone several stones weaker, what might be an obvious outcome to ourselves, might not be clear to our opponent.
Similarly, when we play against someone several stones stronger, we might be the ones that are continuing to play on in a clearly losing position.
I don’t think people that play out games into scoring are necessarily doing so as a discourtesy, but maybe they simply want to explore the game further. Maybe they simply want to perform the exercise of scoring. For those that wish to study the game, there could perhaps even be something to be gained from playing on.
I think we should give others the benefit of the doubt, since, most likely, we have been unknowingly granted such leniency and patience from stronger players as well.
well, if you know you are losing the game with no reasoable reason to turn around, you still play on because you can benefit from it ignoring how your opponents feel and can or can not benefit from it? isnt that selfish?
if i am losing, especially a stronger player, i certainly dont want to practice my end game on him/her. my view is due to our inability to read/control close games, i have enough of them to practice end game naturally, if i want to.
but your point is taken, i wouldnt bluntly ask opponent to resign. i just remind my opponent there is literally nothing to play. upon refusal, i just resign. i am pretty sure if i call moderator, the mod will give me the win.
When the player is strong enough to judge the precision of the score estimator xD
But yeah seriously speaking, i’m about 3k, and i still have hard time to judge the game to be over, unless some crucial group of mine just got killed, or if the game isn’t already close to / at end game, where i might as well play the last 20 moves and take it into counting, because “i’ve already come this far.”
Really? I’d love to hear a confirmation or rejection about that from mods.
easy, u can look at my history and ask a mod, lol
i dont feel its nice to post the game, but most of his/her stones were killed. i did make an effort to make it a teaching game, but it got to end at some point…
i went on reseaching my opponent’s active games and concluded he/she just wanted a win, so i resigned.
now you still want to challenge my character?
As a beginner in Go, I think I would find it a tad ungracious of a stronger player to essentially show me the equivalent of “CAN’T you tell you lost this game, don’t take up any more of my time…”. If someone wants to end the game, I respect and accept it (maybe write it in the chat, I would definitely pick up the non-verbal cues IRL but online can be tricky), but the manner it is done would be important to me.
However, a game is a game and people make mistakes, so unless it’s a player many, many levels above me I can always hope to reduce the gap from humiliating defeat to honorary defeat if a live to fight a little bit more.
I find value and beauty in the game itself, and an opportunity to study wherever I can take it (in Go and in life in general). So, I would continue playing a game as far as it makes sense to do so, to explore and learn from it. (Though, since stronger players than me have answered my challenges, I usually have the opposite problem, thinking “am I being ridiculous for not resigning, does the other person feel burdened by the simplicity of my game?”. I don’t have a definite answer to that, I guess people will not play with me again in the future if they find that the challenge is not enough for them to enjoy the game, which is fair).
I have felt this frustration in the past as well. However, there are lots of players who have no problem with playing the game out till the end and choosing to count instead of resign. I feel like this is absolutely okay, as these players just love to play the game and enjoy it over the result. They don’t usually care too much if they win or lose (unless they are deliberately sitting it out), and even then, that is okay with a little time and patience. It is difficult to answer your initial question because there can be players that realize the have lost as newbies and there are some even players that are even stronger than me that “enjoy” playing until the end. I personally have been able to improve my patience with such players. Besides, even if they have lost, there is always good endgame practice. I personally almost never go all the way to the counting if I am losing the game unless the game comes down to a couple of points. It really comes down to personal choice.
well, if one enjoys play regardless of win or lose, one can always play bot, heehee
uhere is my take if one is frustrated at opponent not resigning:
never ask opponent to resign, because it is against the rule and indeed rude.
state in the chat my opponent is losing big and why, at a right timing, meaning not in a middle of a fight etc to make it stressful. for example, in a game, i had a huge group surrounded with one eye. after my sdk opponent finally gave up trying the second eye by playing one point end game move, i stated in the chat even if the huge group is live, he is still lost. he resigned immediately.
in a non confronting tone, i think i am entitled to my opinion and comunication is less insulting than pass or it’s my choice of communicating.
- i resign, no need to be frustrated.
this applies to only online correspondent games.