Suicide move is allowed

Usually when I try to pay a suicide move, it shows an error and won’t let me play it, but in a game I’m currently playing it let’s me place the stone, kills and removes the group and shows the submit button.

Is this a bug or can a game be set in a way to not prevent suicide moves?

Please note I’m not in any way contesting the game, I’m just asking.

New Zealand rules allow suicide, most other rules don’t.

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Yep that’s it. Thanks!

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Quite strange NZ’s rule since one of the very basic rules of go I had learned was that the suicide is forbidden.
No so strange at the end of the day. Why one should suicide?

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In most cases it’s not beneficial to self-capture. However, there are some rare cases where it could be advantageous. See: https://senseis.xmp.net/?Suicide

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Hmmm… If I knew it was actually allowed (and if I could manage it) maybe I should have killed those stones. :yum:

I should study more and I should pay attention to rulesets more. I guess. :woman_shrugging::slightly_smiling_face:

I see. Another pearl in the game of go that turns something apparently obvious in a brain-squizzing dilemma.

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If youbplay suicide moves because the computer doesn’t tell you it’s forbidden, you should pay more attention to the game, not the rules. The difference between the rules are minor at most.

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On my opinion, rules that forbid suicide are quite strange. To me it seems more natural to just remove stones without liberties.

It is a matter of rules. If you learn that suicide (what’s the name in Japanese go? karakiri or seppuku? :smile:) is possible, than it will seem natural to play with it.

Introducing that rule for sure add some extra-dimension in certain situations even if those are rare.

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Time-wasters and trolls would love to be able to play suicide moves. They could drag out the lost game even longer.

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Haha no at least at that particular instance I knew my group was dead, I was analyzing and it felt weird that it registered the move and then I tried it in game and it registered again, which sent me to the forum.

Not to say I don’t still need to exercise more so I can tell when my groups are dead.

I’m not arguing just adding to the conversation:

To me it’s weird that someone can pass but then is allowed to play again. I mean, when it’s someone’s turn in anything, I expect them to “react” in a way, do their part, it’s pretty strange to me that someone can say “nah, you deal with this and I’ll be back”. I’m pretty sure the same stands in other games, I’d find it weird anyway.

And “pay attention to the rules” as in “what did I sign up to” :-).

Generally we pass when we think there are no beneficial moves left for us to play. This doesn’t mean that if your opponent continues to place stones that it won’t be beneficial to play another move in the future. I see this most commonly when playing against newer players who don’t realize that the game is over and whatever they’re trying doesn’t work

Edit: or against time wasters who refuse to allow the game to end

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I understand how it works, it’s just weird; like being allowed to exit the ring and then come back in.

Maybe there’s a rule subset somewhere that forbids playing after passing. :slight_smile:

Wow, has it ever actually come to that? I mean, has the moderator team actually come across an instance that had already gotten to the point where the time waster/troll had run out of legal (non-suicidal) moves? I would imagine that in the vast majority of cases, either the moderator team would have stepped in or the game would have been already abandoned well before that occurs.

I agree that in theory allowing suicide means that a troll could avoid passing much longer, but preventing self-capture still doesn’t really stop a time waster from making games much, much longer than necessary. Just playing any and every legal move does that, and then a troll can endlessly cycle between passing and resuming a game.

Ultimately, my point is just that I don’t think any of the rules really prevent trolls from massively time wasting, and a rule that disallows self-capture does not have much practical benefit toward reducing it.

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Forbidding players from playing more stones after they have passed would have the effect of requiring players to fix all of their ko threats and convert their groups into “unconditionally (pass) alive” (in the strictness sense, which means alive even if the defender only passes). If a player did not do this before passing, then their opponent could continue playing stones and potentially capture something (that one would normally think of as alive) to reduce their score. Hence, this would only make sense with an area scoring rule set, and it would essentially force the players to play out a lengthy encore of strategically meaningless moves.

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Time-wasters are primarily new players and, to a lesser extent, dishonorable stronger players including SDKs. I threw in trolls to cover all the bases, but since they are a small percentage of players, they play a small role in this subject as well. Stalling is very common, and stalling to the bitter end is much more common than you imagine.

Stonger players. say mid-DDKs and up, who understand that they do not need to capture dead groups, are able to minimize the lost time, but weaker players are frequently drawn into an endless whack-a-mole routine. Some TPKs, as well as trolls, will also infill their territory, even until they have only one liberty. The trolls, and the normal players who are angry, will drag out each move, by using, say, 25 of 30 seconds for each self-atari move. Stronger players will often resign or escape in order to avoid having their time wasted.

I have seen all of this because I devote a large part of my moderation time to watching games on the Overview page. This enables me to intervene immediately in cases of score cheating and stalling.

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:100: :100:

This is exactly what I was trying to get at, but yebellz has explained much more proficiently

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Ah, it makes sense.

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