Are we there yet? ; )
Sure, I’ll do it. Let me get my coffee first
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K10 is losing meaning to me, could you tell us more what you see with this move?
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Interesting note: I thought that after Black S15, White R14 was a joseki – definitely a secondary one, but a reasonable move.
Turns out that R14 has only ever been played five or six times, compared to over 400 plays of Q14 (and, according to Waltheri, absolutely no plays of anything else).
I expect you’ll want to see the R14 games soon, so here are the ones most worth looking at:
Onoda – Go Seigen 1935 http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/38115/
Tainaka – Hashimoto Utaro 1964 http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/40046/
Hashimoto Utaro – another Hashimoto 1969 http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/39561/
Tae-hyeon – Cho Hun-hyeon 1986 http://ps.waltheri.net/database/game/28002/
Note that the games from 1935 and 1986 develop the same formation. Probably this is because the players had studied that game; it was from Go Seigen after all.
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Old memories from the Ishida are already what you point out.
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I just wanna stick with it until it gets played. It isn’t necessarily good, I just wanna play it and I am dedicated to it atm.
Well it’s an interesting concept although I’m not sure that telling this move is maybe not that good is the best way to get a majority of votes.
Hope your dream become real some time in the game
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I’m more than happy to discuss Q14 vs R14 in this position (although let’s wait for the current poll results to come in).
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Well the poll may cancel that branch too so… The choice could be just a matter of taste because for me both ways drive to same kind of results. One difference I see is that Q14 eliminate any kind of cutting aji directly, looking a bit more thick. Another is that Q14 may have a better check on what can happen for the corner
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Back to the poll choices, I am not so happy that w is building influence like that, but I guess it’s too late to change that. P17 and S15 looking like the two candidates and I prefer S15 which would at least have some consequences on the left side. If something I would avoid is to be enclosed in that direction.
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Why Tengen Is Good Here:
well like look at what areas black is controlling at that point. especially compared to white.
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I’ve added R14 and a sequence from it from Get Strong at Joseki 2 by Richard Bozulich. Yoshio Ishida includes R14 in Dictionary of Basic Joseki in Volume 3, but says ‘Black 3 (R14) is slightly vulgar in style’. The sequence (which Ishida says you cannot call it a ‘good result’ for black) is slightly different to Bozulich’s one (I’ve seen Leela play Bozulich’s 2 the push),
I don’t think bots would play R15, but I’ve seen leelazero consider most of the sequence given in Bozulich (left) once R15 is played. It can tenuki without playing 9 onward for instance (but bots do that). I’ve seen it also prefer 5 in the left diagram at p17. Leela seems also to consider playing both Bozulich’s 2 and Ishida’s 4 once giving the position. (I’m just playing with zbaduk)
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@Groin Are we on White’s turn now? Let’s get on with it~
The last poll is here up:
Still 7hrs to go.
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Do we really need another seven hours? S15 was arguably the only move even worth consideration, and now it’s leading 12-2 over the other options.
Do we really need to close it 7 hours early? Nothing is stopping people from proposing and discussing potential responses.
It looks like R14 and Q15 have already been put forward as potential responses by White to the presumed Black at S15.
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Please join the [how-to] where the debate takes place
If tengen wins, I suggest white S16
if S15 wins, I suggest white R14
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