I’d go K17. Seems more urgent trying to live there. The moves on the right-center may be sente, but if white goes out there, it would be gote in the dame.
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Well, K17 is a complete valide vote now.
Times ago, we discussed it and Artem gave a variation to kill it if trying to live on the place.
So it’s by then mostly considered like an aji.
After black P7, white connects and black covers, I think white has sufficient resources to live (marked points), while black ends up with some bad aji at A-C.
White could also delay their response to 1 (making sabaki first, using the marked resources), to keep other responses to P7 in reserve (for example O7 or P8), or urgeing black to add another move at O7 or P6 with some other white forcing move.
So P7 may be sharp, but its pros and cons are difficult to judge for me. Without exhaustive additional analysis, my gut feeling says black might be overdoing it.
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I like P7 though, a lot of ajIs, But white is not yet alive.
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Let me try with some tewari analysis (by changeing the move order to something that also seems somewhat reasonable).
Suppose black starts at O7 and white responds at 2 (aiming at some follow-up at N7 or around O4 later).
What should black play next, A or B?
(note that black A gets the exact same result as the diagram in my previous post, in a different move order).
I feel that black A would be making somewhat broken shape. I would prefer black B.
From black’s point of view, I would like white to play at A, not black.
That tewari is not possible, so u have to settle with the next best thing.
Some time ago I tried to read if white can live after allowing black Q8 and O7. This was my reading then, where white lives (or escapes around P8)
So by my reading, it is surprisingly hard to kill white whole (but I could be missing something).
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No need to kill white. You misunderstood me. you just have to gain some kind of wall in sente while white tries to live.
You can choose to tenuki or fix those ajis using the sente.
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OK, maybe I should also have been more clear. I’m also in favour or playing from the center and building some influence while attacking white.
I suppose white will settle his group instead of responding to P7 directly (at A or B or something else), maybe starting at S9:
If black starts attacking at O7 instead, white may also not respond directly and settle his group first (perhaps starting with S9 as well).
So for a while, white will probably not respond directly to either O7 or P7. But once white is settled, I feel white will be left with better options / aji later, when black’s stone is located at P7, than when it is located at O7.
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Hum. Let say black A then (huge) and if white continue on the edge, black O10 (even more)
Black P7 + P6 + O10 together are indeed big, but comparing with black O7 + O10, is the difference worth spending an extra move (at this stage of the game)?
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Black O7 wins the poll.
Time to consider and suggest white’s move!
Everyone welcome.
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P7 moves out well, as below.
But this maneuver is gote. Maybe we should cut H6 or H8 first as @Jon_Ko suggested:
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If black can’t kill the lower right after white tenukis, it might be the right timing for H6 or H8 cut, yes.
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with regard to your variation, I’m confused as to what would happen if Black cuts at Q8
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Black’s position looks too thin to play so aggressively. White would stretch to 1. After that, only Black 2 keeps the group severed. Then Black’s thinness starts to show itself. White can cut at A, and that black stone would be just one move away from being laddered. White only needs B in place to guarantee the ladder. And White B makes miai of cutting at A and pushing at C. Speaking of which, White C threatens to rip black’s right-side position apart with D/E. I don’t see how Black can fix all these problems in a single maneuver. So White should be very safe.
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I can imagine black getting some forcing moves against white’s top like O12, so that Q8 would become an issue for white in the future.
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I’ve tried to kill the lower right after white H8, but it is indeed hard. Then I added black O12 and white O14 and it seemed a little easier. That exchange seems passive for white, but it’s something to keep in mind.
Now I’m wondering if white should just defend and play something like S9. As Claire pointed out, it’s black who needs to push hard for points.
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Maybe white needs to make the S3-S2 exchange before attaching at S9?
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