I’m more curious what do you call Hane in English
“Hane”. I think there are more borrowed words from English in Japanese (from my limited experience learning Japanese) but in this case I think we’ve borrowed that word into English…
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But why is “Hane” still “Hane” but “Magari” is “Turn”? Does that mean there’s no equivalent of “Hane” in English
I think that is the case.
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That doesn’t look like a hane to me
Is it this hane? I’m sure it could have been calqued (what can’t?), but I guess having a short 2-syllable word was too useful, so it stuck? I think keima and ogeima had some presence for a while, but now I think most just refer to knights’ moves. My guess would be, lots of terms were borrowed directly, and the ones that stuck were the most useful
When I put the Japanese, Chinese and Korean terms for hane into google translate (via Dutch), I get respective translations like “bounce”, “pull” and “turn around”.
When I do the same for magari I get respective translations like “curve”, “turn around” and “entangle”.
It seems hard to come up with a Dutch or English term that fits those meanings well, while keeping a clear distinction between hane and magari.
But I don’t think it’s a problem to leave some jargon untranslated. Many arts, sports and sciences have such untranslated jargon terms and I think that helps to distinguish some very specific meanings from everyday language. For example “en passant” and “zugzwang” in chess, “seiza” and “sensei” in martial arts and “neutrino” and “zitterbewegung” in Physics (besides all the untranslated Latin and Greek terms). It helps international communication between practitioners.
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Not sure whether it came from there, but there’s another word for jump (= Tobi), so meaning wise that doesn’t sound right.
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You are right, I’ve looked into this a while back, and the actual source of the use came from the old terminology 綽 which was pronounced はねる (haneru), and later shifted and shorten to hane
https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments/171h7jp/what_is_the_origin_of_the_term_hane_in_japanese_go/
And you can check older sources in the early 20th century (1901 and 1913) using them
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/861016/1/8
https://dl.ndl.go.jp/pid/906346/1/14
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Indeed. There’s no good English word for hane, it’s short, easy to pronounce (once you know it’s 2 syllables and not a ‘magic e’), and a common concept that comes up in every game and is useful to talk about. So it makes my list of about 20 Japanese go terms that make sense to adopt into English.
See my list of terms here Language choices for English-language website • Life In 19x19
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I’m late to this but can’t resist an observation
Hane is two syllables but alternatives a long and clunky - reach around move? Who can be bothered with that.
Magari is the syllables but turn is one
Keima, three syllables and/or hard to say. Knights move, two syllables and very familiar and easy to say (unless you are Monty Python’s French Taunter)
So my conclusion is that we just can’t be bothered with anything that’s more than two syllables.
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I count two syllables.
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Same. Maybe @teapoweredrobot was thinking of ogeima, or alternatively of morae?
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Is it not “kay-ee-ma”? I dunno!
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A diphthong is only one syllable.
If you insist that keima is kay-ee-ma then “knight” is nah-eet.
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I’m just going by the Japanese けいま really and counting three.
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“Yes” in Japanese is “hai” (はい). How many syllables do you count in that word?
And in the English word “high”, how many syllables do you count?
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The Japanese themselves think in mora (~ time slots) rather than syllables.
kyo is 1 mora: kyo
kyō is 2 mora: kyo + o
kokko is 3 mora: ko + k + ko
nippon is 4 mora: ni + p + po + n
I suppose keima is 3 mora: ke + e + ma, and hai is 2 mora: ha + i.
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Yes, I don’t really understand syllables! And it was only a light hearted analysis. But I don’t really see hai the same as high or hi although I’m happy to accept that they are all one syllable. And the ei sound in keima is not like ei in eight to me.
But I feel this somewhat proves my point that this is a hard to say word in English and there is a low effort English equivalent.
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