What is exactly a hane?

The only thing is that a turn may have more different meaning as magari (for example a keima turning into a direction). And at the same time magari may evoke a bit more in your mind as just turning (like “including the consequences of a solid connection” for example).

As for the difficulty, japanese is not that difficult compared to some other languages. The difficulty is more that you may feel of little use to learn those dedicated words but I am ok myself with that.

Devolution to linguistics in under 60 comments I’m impressed!

Has anyone pointed out that Hane is the singular of Hanes?

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Back on topic, here is the pattern search for a hane (top right black move, lower left black is existing stone as is white stone), assuming not on 1st line.

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What? Keima is so much easier to say than Knights move!

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If you want fewer syllables why not borrow Chinese terminologies, they are almost always just one or two words (hence just one or two syllables garenteed).

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Chinese is more difficult to pronounce for westerners because of the tones, and because of sounds j/zh/ch/q or sh/x (pinyin transcription) which are hard to distinguish. Japanese is relatively easier.
In France, people tend to use Japanese go terms (keima, tobi,…). Some of them are systematically mispronounced, like “shichō”: people commonly say “shisho”.

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I don’t think that is the case, many terminologies use very simple words and easy to pronounce, for example, the knight’s move is called 飛, pronounced almost exactly like “fae” and easy to associate with the concept “fly”(and the literally meaning of the Chinese word) and can distinguish different distance by simply added like “small fae” (小飛), “large fae” (大飛), even diagonal jump like 象飛 (elephant fae/fly).

I am more inclined to think it has more to do with when they were first translated, terminologies from Japanese sources are easily accessible and spread.

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I agree with that point, but still, even Chinese words which are “easy” to pronounce have tones. And westerners who read a pinyin transcription tend to pronounce zh, q and x like in their native language, so the result is horrible.

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You don’t need to pronounce a Chinese word with tones like they don’t pronounce Japanese words with Japanese emphasis. And I don’t think there are Chinese terminologies that would require different tones to distinguish them. And lots of borrowed Chinese words don’t even need to have the same pronunciation (there is no standard pronunciation, and there are lots of regional differences, where they don’t sound like each other at all, and we are used to the same word pronounced differently as long as they can be distinguished). Even if we run into those “harder” to pronounce words, we can just use the literal translation, like 跳 (jump), which also doesn’t use the Japanese terminology.

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I think more people are familiar with chess so it makes sense to use the chess term in that case.

Even the problem with Japanese terms is simply the general problem of learning a language - you need some reason or association to remember them. So whether it’s fae or keima the player still has to come up with some way to remember that, but they likely already know what a knights move is.

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I suspect what happened, is that people said “keima, which means knight’s move” so often, that eventually people just started dropping the “keima, which means” part, since for this purpose, the chess knight is sufficiently analagous to the Shogi knight, so even though westerners will likely think of the chess knight, they’ll still understand

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I feel almost all the “simple terminologies”, jump, extend, knight’s move, push, attach/bump, turn, even peep, clamp, are all literal translations and frequently used, compared to the higher concepts, like aji, and tenuki (even basic shapes would use literal translations).

I think this is what makes “hane” interesting, and stand out in the “Go elementary terminologies”. It has an origin that can be dated back to older Chinese terminologies and was kept during translation.

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That would assume that a large part of western players already knew a number of Japanese terms to begin with which they used regularly.

When I started learning Go probably around the late 2000s, yes, I heard/used keima/ogeima exclusively. I was very resistant to adopting “knight’s move”, but eventually caved when it seemed to gain ground as the most popular term

In the Netherlands we often still use the Dutch chess term in go, which translate to “horse’s jump” and “large horse’s jump”, when describing the move. For the shape (such as shimari) we may use keima and ogeima.

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What have you done to my post?? :sob: :sob: Just kidding, you can throw a semantics digression anytime and I won’t complain. But regarding my initial question, I believe the only person who gave me a satisfactory answer (though I’m not sure if it remains immune to controversy) was @Uberdude:

A hane is a diagonal move from one of your stones that has 3 liberties (unless on 1st line) so that one lost liberty is an enemy stone and there is a cutting point.

without undervaluing the great contribution provided by @Gooplet, @GreenAsJade, @Samraku, @shinuito and many others.

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I didn’t realize you were looking for a definition; I’ll have a go:

Hane (n)

A move A such that in relation to existing stone B of the same color, A is one diagonal step away from B, there exists exactly one stone C which contacts both A and B and it is of the opposing color, there optionally exists a stone D which contacts C and is one diagonal step away from A, no stones other than {B, C, [D]} are orthogonally or diagonally adjacent to A, and the move meaningfully reduces the liberty count of the opposing string which C belongs to but does not atari or capture it

To Hane (v)

To play a move such that it is a Hane

As always, usage determines meaning, so these are meant to be descriptive of how I use/understand it, not prescriptive.

Also, this regards the English word “Hane”, not the Japanese word it was borrowed from, which may differ on points and be just as correct in Japanese as the differing meaning is in English

This is too restrictive, hence the exclusion from the pattern area in my post. With your definition this move would not be a hane, but it is:

Screenshot 2024-12-05 at 00.39.59

Commentary here might be “white invades by attaching, black hanes on top”. The fact black’s k5 stone covers the cut means it is also a bulge, but it doesn’t stop being a hane (see Bulge at Sensei's Library).

So I should perhaps clarify the “there is a cutting point” from my previous definition that the cutting point intersection must be unoccupied (i.e it’s not a turn/magari), so there is not a solid connection, but it could be that the cutting point is effectively defended by a more distant move like a hanging connection.

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Tiger’s mouth?

Ok, covered in the article you linked lol. Never heard it called a bulge before.

Here… ahhh, bulge means something else :sweat_smile:

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That’s on the fuzzy edge of the definition, imo. Whether or not it’s a hane depends on the focus of the comment, I think