Why no Jigo button? (Offer Draw)

A little bit in the spirit of # Why no Jigo?

I thought somewhere hidden in the layers of menus I would have the option to Offer draw to my opponent. This would be a really nice way to e.g. end correspondence games where both you and your opponent have lost interest in the game, for whatever reason, and would seek an amiable resolution.

But it seems OGS does not give the option. The suspicion seems confirmed seeing how even a drawn score is not yet handled correctly. So I am starting to think that that button might be missing outright.
But it would be so great to have it!

The result would be a little bit like Canceling a game, the result does not count, nobody wins, no rank adjustments afterhand. (Hell, if it creates problems for the ranking algorithm, I would be fine with only having the option for unranked games)

There is even perfect place where to put it, from an UI perspective - next to the Pass and Resign buttons:
missing_Draw_button_position

I’m so jealous that only chess players can have this kind of in-game mini drama:
66xiisefee941

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I was just about to say that this sounds rather Chessy.
Just call moderator and have the game annulled?

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Ok, that might have a bit of truth because of what happens in practice, but in principle that is a bit odd — considering go purports itself to be all about balance, not seeking victory at all costs, etc

I am sure many would not want to waste staff time by dealing with this - your time is valuable and am sure a lot of users know and respect this.
Not to mention that brings in an additional unpleasant feeling like quarrelling siblings calling in the adults to supervise

Regrettably, there isn’t always one immediately on hand. I quite like this option though, it may even be workable with a bit of planning.

Actually, TPR isn’t a mod :wink: (though I’m sure their time is still valuable)

Oh, also, as far as ratings are concerned… an annulled game is absolutely not the same as a drawn game.

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But Go also prides itself on not having draws outside some exceptional circumstances. I mean maybe an “offer no result” option should be available for a triple ko in Japanese rules or something but I guess that’s niche enough to call a mod for.

Well, if I’ve understood the scenario one or both players got bored and just want to finish the game without affecting ranks etc. The likely current outcome is that one player will timeout and so the game ought to be annulled if unclear as to the victor.

But it’s a correspondance game in this scenario and I’ve never had to wait more than a day for mod action (thank you for the impeccable service).

But OP asked for:

This tells me that you think a “draw” is the same as a “tie” - IE both players scored the same.

That is not remotely the same as the “cancel” button, unless the players are the same rank.

Even if they are the same rank, in some situations it might not be the same as the “cancel” button (depending on which bit of glicko is implemented and how at the time).

“Cancel” means “this game never happened”.

“Draw” means “the players each achieved the same score”.

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Uhh, incorrect. I was simply observing that one of the ways of having a tie is not implemented. So perhaps others are not implemented as well

Prides? Not sure if you’re misusing the word here. Honestly IMHO this is not in the “spirit of the game”

And yet, forcing every game, or 99,99% of games, to have a clear winner and loser can only help promote toxic behaviors in the community: one-upmanship; escapers; not to mention all the techniques that go towards rank inflation.

Now that I think about it, playing automatch ranked games always felt like work, for as long as I remember; precisely because there is no way to get out of one once started.
And this goes hand in hand with the way certain players, masters at dragging on lost games, develop that particular waiting-for-your-mistake playing style, that is so tiring to counter, that we all may know too well.

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I’m not sure how true that is. Before the development of tie-break komi in the middle of the last century, as we know, jigo occurred and don’t seem to have been considered a nuisance.

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Ok, so I suppose I should have really focused on the fact that draws are relatively rare in Go as compared to chess even with integer Komi.

For me (and I’m no chess expert) the fact that one can play for a draw in chess as a valid strategy when I’m a losing position is very different to go. In that, in chess it’s possible to “force” a draw whereas in Go you can only drag out a losing position in the hope that your opponent makes a mistake (maybe out of boredom) but you can’t “force” this outcome.
I may have misunderstood chess but I thought that it is at least sometimes possible to obtain a draw and there being nothing the opponent can do about it. Or looking at it the other way round, even if they keep their wits about them you can’t necessary turn a winning position into a win, whereas you can in Go.
Anyway a long way to say that I don’t think “offering a draw” is necessary in Go. In the rare cases it might be justified I don’t see the problem with having a mod deal with the situation. Either someone is trolling from a losing position and needs a talking to or the game should be annulled so as to not affect rankings. Both mod business I think.

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FlyOrDie has an “Offer Draw” button in go. I’ve never used it myself and all the cases where my opponent offered a draw, they were trolls or novices offering a draw from a (heavily) losing position.

So IMO this is a completely redundant feature in go.

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This was such a “yesyesyesno” post for me to read :open_mouth:
I thought the tone was “even FlyOrDie has the button”…

On a serious note, could not this be a mere exposure effect? Getting used to not having the features, could lead to think it is not needed…

I just do see how it is needed. Just resign and if there is reason then call a mod.

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I like your idea, but its not that easy:
https://forums.online-go.com/t/go-memes/4337/2312

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Ha - the linked post made me chuckle, but, in your spaceship analogy, for a 1-on-1 board game, not having an Offer Draw button seems akin to designing a new car but forgetting to install the blinkers… you would be able to drive, but something is missing.

The small clash of opinions on this thread made me curious to see how many others see it in which way, so here’s this survey:

Should a button be implemented to offer Jigo/draw by agreement
  • Yes, it is an useful feature (how could we ever live without it)
  • Yes, although I would rarely use it
  • I don’t know/don’t care
  • Definitely not!

0 voters

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Such button would be better after game ended. I wish to annul all games where I won by timeout or resign but actually was behind by KataBot opinion.
If it will be allowed during game, some people will just spam it every 2nd game for some evil reasons. This button should reduce work of moderators, not increase.

I don’t think chess has achieved that anyway with draws left right and centre. I don’t think we can conclude that 0.5 komi makes people toxic or promotes escaping etc. It seems a bit of a leap.

Go is a long game, if a person loses in endgame it’s not really different to losing in middle game especially if they’re not under time pressure. So while one can try and be high and mighty that players should resign not to drag on a lost game, there’s also such a thing as fighting spirit or kiai (https://www.amazon.com/Fight-Like-Pro-Secrets-Kiai/dp/4906574785 - “ In go, however, kiai means coming up with innovative and creative moves.”) and look if a person can’t win a game by finishing it, do they deserve to win it? If I don’t know how to checkmate with a rook and king vs a king should my opponent resign because I can’t figure it out?

Back to the main point though, I agree with this by @gennan. I don’t think it adds much having this option, except as mentioned if it somehow lessened the work of moderators.

One could have the option only for unranked games if the rating algorithm has issues, but does it really matter who “won” in an unranked game on the internet :slight_smile: It’s not like winning some correspondence games on time feels any better than having a game where one or both players just gave up the will to play and cancelled, resigned or offered a tie.

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How about we just finally fix the system which cannot recognise ties even with integral komi?

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No, you asked why Jigo is not implemented, and then you compared it to Cancel.

As I said, these are totally different things.

Do you want a “Jigo” button (ranked draw) or a “Cancel” button (annullment) ?

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To clarify the difference between a rated draw and an annullment: When it is an even game with a rating gap between the 2 players, the higher rated player would lose rating points and the lower rated player would gain points from a rated draw (because a 50% score is a better than expected result for the lower rated player). So in general, a rated draw is not the same as an “amiable resolution” where nobody gains or loses (except when both players have the same rating). This is also the case in chess Elo rating systems.

So what you’re requesting seems more like an “Offer Annullment” button than an “Offer Draw” button.

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I have jigs function