Why no Jigo button? (Offer Draw)

I’m not sure how true that is. Before the development of tie-break komi in the middle of the last century, as we know, jigo occurred and don’t seem to have been considered a nuisance.

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Ok, so I suppose I should have really focused on the fact that draws are relatively rare in Go as compared to chess even with integer Komi.

For me (and I’m no chess expert) the fact that one can play for a draw in chess as a valid strategy when I’m a losing position is very different to go. In that, in chess it’s possible to “force” a draw whereas in Go you can only drag out a losing position in the hope that your opponent makes a mistake (maybe out of boredom) but you can’t “force” this outcome.
I may have misunderstood chess but I thought that it is at least sometimes possible to obtain a draw and there being nothing the opponent can do about it. Or looking at it the other way round, even if they keep their wits about them you can’t necessary turn a winning position into a win, whereas you can in Go.
Anyway a long way to say that I don’t think “offering a draw” is necessary in Go. In the rare cases it might be justified I don’t see the problem with having a mod deal with the situation. Either someone is trolling from a losing position and needs a talking to or the game should be annulled so as to not affect rankings. Both mod business I think.

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FlyOrDie has an “Offer Draw” button in go. I’ve never used it myself and all the cases where my opponent offered a draw, they were trolls or novices offering a draw from a (heavily) losing position.

So IMO this is a completely redundant feature in go.

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This was such a “yesyesyesno” post for me to read :open_mouth:
I thought the tone was “even FlyOrDie has the button”…

On a serious note, could not this be a mere exposure effect? Getting used to not having the features, could lead to think it is not needed…

I just do see how it is needed. Just resign and if there is reason then call a mod.

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I like your idea, but its not that easy:
https://forums.online-go.com/t/go-memes/4337/2312

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Ha - the linked post made me chuckle, but, in your spaceship analogy, for a 1-on-1 board game, not having an Offer Draw button seems akin to designing a new car but forgetting to install the blinkers… you would be able to drive, but something is missing.

The small clash of opinions on this thread made me curious to see how many others see it in which way, so here’s this survey:

Should a button be implemented to offer Jigo/draw by agreement
  • Yes, it is an useful feature (how could we ever live without it)
  • Yes, although I would rarely use it
  • I don’t know/don’t care
  • Definitely not!

0 voters

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Such button would be better after game ended. I wish to annul all games where I won by timeout or resign but actually was behind by KataBot opinion.
If it will be allowed during game, some people will just spam it every 2nd game for some evil reasons. This button should reduce work of moderators, not increase.

I don’t think chess has achieved that anyway with draws left right and centre. I don’t think we can conclude that 0.5 komi makes people toxic or promotes escaping etc. It seems a bit of a leap.

Go is a long game, if a person loses in endgame it’s not really different to losing in middle game especially if they’re not under time pressure. So while one can try and be high and mighty that players should resign not to drag on a lost game, there’s also such a thing as fighting spirit or kiai (Amazon.com - “ In go, however, kiai means coming up with innovative and creative moves.”) and look if a person can’t win a game by finishing it, do they deserve to win it? If I don’t know how to checkmate with a rook and king vs a king should my opponent resign because I can’t figure it out?

Back to the main point though, I agree with this by @gennan. I don’t think it adds much having this option, except as mentioned if it somehow lessened the work of moderators.

One could have the option only for unranked games if the rating algorithm has issues, but does it really matter who “won” in an unranked game on the internet :slight_smile: It’s not like winning some correspondence games on time feels any better than having a game where one or both players just gave up the will to play and cancelled, resigned or offered a tie.

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How about we just finally fix the system which cannot recognise ties even with integral komi?

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No, you asked why Jigo is not implemented, and then you compared it to Cancel.

As I said, these are totally different things.

Do you want a “Jigo” button (ranked draw) or a “Cancel” button (annullment) ?

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To clarify the difference between a rated draw and an annullment: When it is an even game with a rating gap between the 2 players, the higher rated player would lose rating points and the lower rated player would gain points from a rated draw (because a 50% score is a better than expected result for the lower rated player). So in general, a rated draw is not the same as an “amiable resolution” where nobody gains or loses (except when both players have the same rating). This is also the case in chess Elo rating systems.

So what you’re requesting seems more like an “Offer Annullment” button than an “Offer Draw” button.

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I have jigs function

I would like a “Jigo” button.

Sorry about the ambiguity, I was coming from thinking of Unranked games, where the distinction would not have mattered; but you are right.

Also, thanks @_KoBa for support ^^

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In which case I disagree even more!

If it’s unranked and you lost interest then just resign.

I think this is a very different issue. The problem currently is that ties are displayed incorrectly even though they are handled correctly by the system (as I understand it). This is just a cosmetic issue. However an “offer draw” button/function is not at all cosmetic and would cause more problems than it solves as @gennan has pointed out.

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I think draws are a natural and obvious continuation of the rules of Go and only the recent addition of komi has corrupted that. I’m sure I can’t convince everyone to play with integer komi, but I think to at least have an “offer draw” button seems like a reasonable option to make available.

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I agree, and I like integer Komi so as to retain the possibility of a draw.

I just don’t see how this follows. Having the option of integer Komi and the possibility that there is a draw doesn’t mean that you need to be able to offer a draw as a result. To me you would first need to have the function of offering your opponents the opportunity to resign…

I think if you want to achieve a draw you must:
Choose integer Komi (if you’ve chosen x.5 Komi then you’ve already accepted that there’ll not be a draw)

meme idea

[Edit: Someone cleverer than me can change this meme to say “you accepted my Komi/but now you offer a draw”]

Play so as to achieve jigo (if you’re losing and got bored, just resign. If you’re winning and got bored then play some slack moves so as to get back to jigo again (and be prepared to explain yourself for sandbagging))

It seems to me that what is really asked for might be something that annuls the game but records it visually as a draw.

I think I could probably support a function of “offer to abandon game”. Where the result is recorded as such and the effect is the same as annulment. I suspect this might actually be close to what is sought.

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Jigo will naturally happen from time to time in very close games; no need to try and engineer it.

Indeed but OP would like to engineer a draw as opposed to letting it happen naturally.

(But really I was thinking about this:)

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Uhh, no?

Sending a draw offer (my proposal) =/= engineering a draw (which is, to use your words, “playing so as to achieve jigo” - basically using your read-ahead skills to play like a pro and whatever the opponent does, outplay them in such a way that at the end your score will be exactly the same, in a game where there is an integer komi ofc)

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