Estimate Score - Disabling and Availability of the feature

Estimate Score can’t be disabled. Had to reload page to get rid of it.

There’s something about having a score estimator available that seems wrong to me. Counting and smiting the score through a game is a discipline and real skill and one I don’t have. I’ve played at KGS, DGS and IGS and none have scorers available until the game ends. The feature is a kind of crutch; having it present without asking for it is not exactly a motivation to develop the skill.

I think this feature should default to Off. In game setup it could be selected and if agreeable to both players available to both during the game. I would be surprised if it is allowed during formal competitions; I think it should not be, or it should b addressed in the rules whether it will be or not. If one plays in a real life event, the payer has to do his own estimates.

If someone wants to download the SGF and play hundreds of variations against a bot and get score estimates, they’ll do it but let them have to make the effort to do it intentionally.
I found a few related older topics:


Item (1) of this one is: Disable the Score-Estimator
As we can disable ingame-analysis (+ conditional moves), please let us disable SE as well when we are creating a game.

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Even though I rely heavily on it, I like the idea of being able to disable it.
Btw: as far as I know, disabling analysis mode also disables the ability to download the sgf, so “cheating” would take even more effort.

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I agree. Don’t care if it’s default or not, but being able to disable it (maybe even along with analysis so as not to have TOO many options?) would be a nice option.

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The problem with SE is that it’s very approximate. Were it accurate enough, we’d just declare its use cheating and be done with it. :slight_smile:

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I think that’s being too nice to it :smiley: bloody thing must count so terribly on purpose. The big as my hand method is twice as accurate :stuck_out_tongue:

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Would it be reasonable to think that its estimate becomes more accurate as the game goes on (with the exception that sometimes those things don’t realize something it thinks is dead is alive) and that a more accurate estimate becomes increasingly valuable towards the end of the game?

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Yes, it would be reasonable to think so. The “bloody thing” is not being reasonable, though. In close games it as often wrong about who is winning as it’s not.

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the answer to that question is a BIG NO. See my thread for a description of the problem

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Well, if it is so bad then why not put in a good one - steal it from someplace that has a decent one - or trash it.

It’s one thing to use it as a check on on’s own estimate and see if its allocation of points is similar. It’s another to be depending on it and think of it as an authority with superior skill when in fact it might be worse.

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SE has its uses, but relying blindly on what it says is not one of them. And now that the relevant code is opensource it probably will be replaced with something better. Eventually.

But then again, I have engines installed that can estimate the score in the yose pretty well (better than me, anyway) and I don’t use them while playing because I think that would be cheating.

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I have analysis disabled in all of my games to promote the idea that the results should reflect the ability of the players. For this reason, I’d love to be able to disable the score estimator as well.

Let’s not pretend this is just about estimating the score, either. It’s a territory approximator as much as anything. The primary use I put it to is making sense of a complicated position by labelling which parts of the board belong to whom. It would be very useful to deny myself access to such an abusive tool!

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Yes, but which ability? Playing correspondence online takes a somewhat different set of skills comparing to participating in official tournament in real life. And I think using analysis board effectively is a part of it. And if you really serious about doing everything in your mind, you should probably hide away the board and stones and play blind.

I think, to use or not to use the feature, is a personal choice and there is nothing to argue about.

BUT, to be able to disable the feature should be an option when the game starts.

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I think it is a very helpful to to LEARN to score estimate.
Everytime I use it, I think ahead what the score probably will be and then I use the SE and see where I overlooked something. Next time I know it a tiny little bit better.
Sometimes I use it in a game often to lock at the score development.
Now with around 11k I watched my first “How to count” Videos and I have to say: It is much easier now to understand them, cause I am not bad in estimating anymore, thanks to the SE!

And maybe not unimportant, I know the value of counting without “knowing it” and WANT to know more about it.

Altough an on/off option would be nice at least for tournaments.

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I find this sentence very contradictory :smiley: if you learned from the SE you must be terrible at estimating :smiley: :stuck_out_tongue:

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Maybe it has value if it helps get a player to adopt the discipline of making the effort to do it versus not doing it at all.

lucky me, that I am not looking on learning processes in black and white like we are still in the stone (counting) age. :stuck_out_tongue:

It seems that correspondence games can mean different things to different people and can therefore encompass the use of different skill sets.

For you, this clearly includes using the analysis board. Fair enough - I can totally see that making sense for most players and I can agree that correspondence games are on some level fundamentally different to live play.

For myself, as I hope was clear, I am trying to emulate as much as possible the spontaneous nature of live play. I probably wouldn’t play correspondence games, in fact, if I had time to regularly play live games. For this reason, I play with analysis disabled. For the same reason, I’d like the option of playing with the score estimator disabled.

Maybe I worded my original post badly. Unfortunately, when you go on to say that I…

should probably hide away the board and stones and play blind.

…I think you’re being unfair and rather dismissive of my position.

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I guess it did sound that way, sorry. The thing is it’s a very old discussion and I’m a bit tired of hearing how anything not present on the traditional wooden board is “a crutch” that “is harming my skill”. But that’s not what you’ve been saying so my reply was not justified.
It’s certainly up to you how you chose to play your games and I agree that there should be an option to disable all analysis tools. I would still argue having analysis off is a bad default for correspondence games. But that’s negotiable as long as the option is there.

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All analysis tools are helping to improve your skills, it is like a teacher who shows you what is possible for a better understanding. It is good for a better understanding and therefore a faster learning. The downside if you not overcome the tools you will keep depend on them, so you can’t claim all the credits for yourself, what maybe become unsatisfying over the time.

Of course in a tournament situation all players should have the same possibilities (with or without analysis) or the result becomes meaningless.

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