Because you request recording could you explain us how it works with a phone?
Thanks @marshmn is there more info on how to practically do the recording?
Or is @jlt 's solution the right one?
I agree that we need to add a bit more detail here.
Rest assured we are trying to do ‘the right thing’ and so we will only keep the recordings as long as necessary and access to them will only be by officials.
But I agree, we need to detail that a bit more - I’ll work with the other organisers to do so.
I’m not sure whether it’s going to be possible for us to go into detail on how to use video recording on every device.
I appreciate that we may need to give some general tips and advice on how to upload videos to us etc.
There are not that many OS at least we could have procedure for iOS and Android
I understand that the need to safeguard honor and fairness on online tournaments to that extent came out of nowhere last year.
And I acknowledge that I push a lot on that subject, but I believe, if organizations would pause for a moment to evaluate and really look into how online tournaments should work for now on, it’s an effort that will pay out.
I think organizations in general treat the situation just like a temporary inconvenience (we all hope) to go online, with their eyes on the time things return to “normal”, and don’t really work on a long-term solution.
Just imagine how many more people could realistically enjoy online tournaments in the following years, even after quarantines are far behind us, if the system is put in place now.
I’m expecting that we (British Go Association) will continue to run some online tournaments even after face-to-face tournaments return to normal.
I agree that one aspect of this that we need to get more experienced with is the handling of player video recordings - which seem to be the only real way that people have to defend themselves when there are accusations of cheating.
Are there other things that you think we should be doing in addition to that? I always welcome suggestions on how we can improve.
(just a heads-up, when you quote a post on its entirety the system automatically deletes the whole quote, personally I leave out the last character, usually a “.”, to bypass that)
I think that ultimately there needs to be more online tournaments that don’t have the onerous requirement of recording oneself just to participate. There are a lot competitive contexts (like when prizes are not up for grabs) where such things simply are not worth it.
I hope that more tournaments will take a more casual approach, and that people will “vote with their feet” for that alternative.
Nice to read that. Sadly I would expect this to be done before asking us to record .
In reality I think there is likely to be a mix - some tournaments which mandate video recording for all players, some which don’t mandate it at all, and some which mandate it for top players only.
Within Europe for example, and where results are being submitted to the European Go Database for official ratings, it may depend on what class the tournament is (and therefore how much weighting the results have).
There could be other wsys too when face to face will be agsin possible .
For ex tournaments could happen in different rooms at the same time (like go clubs but not only) which would avoid the recording process
Do you mean to combine players taking part face-to-face and players online in the same torunament?
If so, there have been some tournaments run like this in the last year I believe.
Personally, as an organiser, that sounds like quite a lot of additional work, so I’m not sure it’s something I’d be volunteering to organise anytime soon…
Well if you can’t already explain us how to do a recording with a phone, I am not too surprised.
To be honest, I’d not expected that people would find it particularly difficult to know how to record from their phone. I don’t believe we’ve had any of the players officially contact us asking for further information on it, for example.
However, now that I’m aware that it might be an issue, I will see what we can do to provide more information on it.
I appreciate your honesty.
I don’t think it’s something usual to record2hrs and then send it or stock it. My guess is that till now most players use a pc. And that the ones with a phone may just discard the participation .
Also, what about people who play on their phones/ tablets? For whatever reason, they don’t own a desktop as shown in the example video.
Or they have access to a PC in a library, where recording will be most probably prohibited.
I don’t really want to go down that slippery slope, but it’s really easy to cheat in a room big enough and with some assistance. So, it’s not full proof, really… I suggest checking games that seem suspicious anyway, a good player’s opinion will always mean more to me than a video.
An idea that someone in these forums had (I can’t remember exactly now, but someone else probably will) was to have players explain “too good” moves. I guess that would work better in tandem with some automated AI detection of… well, AI. I know there are some things being developed to that end, but those are above my level of understanding so I just mention them for the sake of the discussion.
Also, I don’t recall which one, but some organizer wanted to charge extra for checking suspicious games reported by players. I understand this on a surface level seems like a good repellent of over-reporting, but it truly is a deflection of the organizers’ responsibility to ensure and uphold a fair competition. I don’t think it was BGF, but if it were, I hope it’s not a practice that will be repeated.
I wonder if “peer-checking” could work for B, C and D level tournaments. Generally, the community can reach a good enough conclusion of “cheater/ maybe/ just a good day”. But that’s just me thinking how well has peer assessment worked elsewhere, so I’m not sure if and how it could work here.
Also, I don’t know if such thing exists, but maybe tournament organizers should share a list of known cheaters. Not available to the public, because naming and shaming is cruel, but if someone for example cheated in the Corona Cup, wouldn’t you, as an organizer, want to know beforehand, as soon as they ask to participate in your tournament? And gently tell them, say, they are banned for a year? I’m ambivalent about that, though, so someone may have a good reason not to.
One last thing about regulations, please allow me a personal anecdote on this uncharacteristically long post of mine:
I’ve worked extensively with public funding. When something out of the ordinary came up, for example a machine not included in the list, the auditor would ask a declaration that the machine is OK for funding, because such and such.
The next program, instead of critically checking, would just include that declaration as a prerequisite by default.
On and on, until we ended up with a bunch of useless declarations and rules over the years, that nobody can really tell why they are in place, but are now part of the procedure and can’t be undone without legislation.
What I’m trying to say, let’s not over complicate things and lose track of the goal, the goal is fairness.
i am curious what is the normal practice when a player needs to leave their seat in the middle of the game. Should people take their recording devices with them if they go to the toilet or outside for a smoke, or just leave the phone recording empty seat for few minutes? Should they mention to the opponent that they’re taking few minute break? Should the audio be also included, even if that might or might not have some other family members talking about personal stuff?
I’m not talking about any specific tournament here, im just wondering about the general guidelines with those recordings
I don’t think there are general guidelines. Some tournaments require audio on, others don’t.
Re: anti-cheating measures.
In some tournament, someone was disqualified based on the game record which showed a too high level of play. The person wasn’t required to provide a video (only dan players were required to do so) and didn’t have a video record so was considered guilty without possible discussion. Some people complained that the anti-cheating committee was too harsh.
Conversely, in another tournament, a person X was strongly suspected of cheating but wasn’t disqualified. After the incident, other people complained and said they wouldn’t participate in future tournaments in which X is registered (in other words the anti-cheating committee was too lenient). Person X was “kindly asked” by their federation to stop participating to online tournaments and wait until IRL tournaments take place.
So things are complicated… Requiring a video is not a bad solution but tutorials on the web page of the competition might be useful.
If they are using a mobile device to play, they will have to set it up (on a desk or whatever) in such a way that they can record it as per the example video.
If someone isn’t able to do that, then I’m afraid they’re not going to be able to participate in events that require video recording. This may seem harsh - but it’s the reality of the situation I’m afraid.
I certainly agree that the video isn’t the only important evidence. For the EWGC Antti will look into any disputes and I’m also expecting that he will look at some random samples of games too. He will use AI as well as looking at the game records. Video is just another piece of evidence that can help him with his analysis.
None of this is an exact science that can proove 100% whether someone cheated or not - it’s all about getting the best possible level of confidence in the decisions that are made.