Kibitz Garden ☕ for the Second Diplomatic Go Game

[Vsotvep]

Looks like NBTO is crumbling… I’d rather see Leira and le_4TC working together with Haze or Sanonius to block the Starry Sky…

[Vsotvep]

Welcome @Sanonius, congratulations with surviving until round 20, it’s a lot longer than I had expected

[belabacsijolvan]

Who are you rooting for?

• le_4TC
• PiggyStardust
• Haze_with_a_Z
• yebellz
• Leira

[Vsotvep]

I’d like to root for all players that are not Piggy and yebellz

I think it would be interesting for them to be overturned.

[Vsotvep]

Special kibitz log hot from the oven for @Sanonius.

Kibitz logs for Round 21

Leira

@Leira

@Leira

I’d suggest submitting N1 and N6 as your first two options in the next turn.

The South remembers.

[Barbanaira]

Of course I know! I witnessed his scheming at the last werewolf game first-hand.

[martin3141]

Thank you for playing @Sanonius.

Hello Kibitzers. I read your posts and appreciate the encouraging comments.

@Groin

Yes diplomatic games are 1: games. 2: about diplomacy.

It’s about how you play with trust (and it’s opposite betrayal) and you signed in from the very start.

So seems to me that Martin didn’t really think of it, and ruined his mood and fun at the thirst betrayal. Which shouldn’t be like that.
I mean you cannot erase a friendship because your friend betrayed you in a diplomatic game. Both should anticipate it, integrate it and pursue their goal of win and keep good relationship between each other on the other sides of life.

You are right of course, I did not know how I would feel during the game. I apologise for disappointing everybody and showing bad sportsmanship. However I would like to describe how playing this game felt to me.

Imagine playing a game with 7 strangers (it was said that we should try to play unbiased, so this is how I viewed it). The game ultimately results in a ranking of these players from first to last place. How well you do largely depends on what the other players think of you, i.e. how trustworthy / likeable you are. If you do well, does this mean you are a trustworthy / likeable person? On the other hand if you do badly, what does this say about you? Perhaps it is my own fault, but I asked myself these questions and was unable to stay calm.

I wanted to avoid direct conflict but failed miserably. I teamed up with PiggyStardust against bugcat because I wanted to do well, but at the same time I felt bad for bugcat.
Later on when PiggyStardust played D4 (in round 9), I had a bad consciousness for asking yebellz if they would “together move towards PiggyStardust”, who I had teamed up with so far. I asked myself “what is wrong with you?”.
My decision to stop communication was an attempt to get some emotional distance. Later when Sanonius, yebellz and PiggyStardust decided to cooperate to capture my stones - I could understand Sanonius motivation, because I had attacked them for the entire game. PiggyStardust and yebellz I had not attacked, but I thought I had angered them by suggesting betraying their alliance, and they didn’t forgive me. Being called a “silent destroyer” and a “lying knave”, I felt like I was rejected by people who I had hoped to befriend.

I understand it is “just a game”, but what if I told you that I’m not sure which I would rather call it; a game or a social experiment.

Unfortunately I cannot imagine playing another game of this caliber without getting too emotional.

Edit I’d like to add: In contrast to what other people suggested, I did not view myself separated from the in-game character. When I play Go, I express a part of myself on the board. This game was no exception.
Furthermore, I’m not used to having my word be distrusted. I felt like I was constantly being tested, and my words were questioned and / or interpreted as a ploy to get sympathy.

[Barbanaira]

When, as a player, you are just a small fry and really struggling, it’s very easy, I think, to be taken advantage of. Eventually, I didn’t do much diplomacy and communication anymore, because my short-term goal, to eliminate @martin3141 or Haze just to survive, was at odds with the goals of other players and I did not see a point to convince them otherwise. And even if Martin, Haze and I had made an alliance against the big shots - it would not have taken much to turn one against the other two.

[martin3141]

Here’s my thoughts about the current game position.

From the last couple moves it looks like yebellz may have turned against PiggyStardust. It is possible that yebellz and le_4TC will cooperate to forcibly disconnect Leiras stones with moves H10 and J10. However I’m unsure if this desirable for them. If they are confident that Leiras group will get captured later down the line, they are not in a hurry. Actually removing the stones from the board opens up free space for Haze_with_a_Z to play on.

I’m also thinking PiggyStardust might be making a similar argument concerning the orange stones. If they trust that orange has stopped playing, they may be better off trying to extend oranges liberties to make it difficult for other players to access the lower-left territory. Maybe this is the reason why yebellz decided to move in the top-left?

This is all pure speculation though.

[Barbanaira]

Hm, if either Blue or Green are gone, it will be difficult for White to attack the remaining one. On the other hand, White for sure knows this too and is maybe content to help eliminate the upper Green group with help from Sky. I really wonder what Leira is scheming right now. He seems to have made a pet out of Haze for the moment. In the long run, maybe, he will sacrifice himself so Haze can come out as a winner.

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 21

yebellz

@yebellz

My development in the top-left corner might appear aggressive to , however, it is all being done with cooperation and encouragement from them. They appear quite generous and I hope that it remains genuine.

Clearly, open hostilities have broken out between and .

has proposed a plan to and to work against and ultimately capture , hence, made that eye limiting move at N12.

However, I really don’t necessarily have a strong interest in seeing eliminated, since that would only feed points to and , which could worsen my own ranking.

Instead, I would like to see , , and reach a three-way stalemate where none of them can eliminate each other, and none can surpass me in points (in terms of stone scoring, of course). Of course, in such a stalemate, I would be keeping alive on account of shared eyes that we can form at G7, G9, and G11.

There is a very remote possibility that might allow me to get too close to them in score, which could allow me to take the lead by eventually clearing the stones of and occupying that space myself. However, I think should foresee that, and perhaps it would be anyways more likely that I might face a combined assault disrupting my ability to safely make eyes. I’ll prepare for the worst, while hoping for the best.

I think the most likely outcome for the final five players is this ranking:

1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 
5. 

PiggyStardust

@PiggyStardust

Hello!
In case anybody’s wondering (but yb has probably already explained everything) yb’s invasion at B10 is only supposed to look like an attack, since I offered him my stone in order to keep the other players (who have all become quite busy anyway) away, just in case they thought I needed some hindrance. This will, anyway, pay him back for his help at D2.

I hope Haze starts to play inside, an attack from le4tc could unbalance the established order. I might consider helping Haze this turn.

I’m thinking of asking Haze and yb to help me remove martin’s stones. This will help all three of us in limiting le4tc’s influence.

[Groin]

I had that kind of hard time with diplo games too, it was classic one IRL and you need play with really good players in spirit. Even so you better don’t play too often, like no more as once a month or so.

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 22

le_4TC

@le_4TC

For the Kibitz thread:
With orange no longer playing, eliminating Haze became much less likely. Thus I’ve been forced to try to capture green instead. The green stones don’t have much eye-shape of their own, but the shared liberties around G8 mean that I will eventually need the collaboration of yebellz to capture.

I’m not too sure if yebellz will be willing to help with this, but I hope so. In selfish terms, capturing green would allow The Sky to expand their own territory, while capturing me would only allow green and (dark) blue to expand.

Since I have three eyes and two neighbours, I should be safe from capture, unless either yebellz or piggy wants to kill me, and I don’t see why they would want that.

I still think piggy is the most likely to win, with yebellz close behind. I have some small chances too, but it depends heavily on whether I can capture green and/or blue. My second and third choices for this next round is an attempt to limit the number of blue eyes, but with orange probably being captured soon it might not be enough to keep blue killable.

[shinuito]

@Vsotvep

Round 23 starts with the following position.

Editable demo board

Please submit your next moves before Today 9:00 PM

Current number of stones per player:

Player	#stones
le_4TC	20
PiggyStardust	21
Orange	10
Haze_with_a_Z	17
yebellz	22
Leira	21

So Yebellz has the most stones, but in terms of area, which is also counting how long a player can last by placing stones inside their territory then this is a rough estimate below - not really including dame that could be split, giving the bottom left corner to piggy, but not removing Martins stones for the moment. Kind of discounting stones that will be captured easily, since a player will lose area/stone count once they get captured.

Player	Area	Potential Eyes
le_4TC	27	E=3
PiggyStardust	37	Lots? ≤ 8?
Orange	10	0
Haze_with_a_Z	23	E≤4
yebellz	29	3≤E≤ 6
Leira	17	E ≤ 2

Not really making a distinction between solid eyes and ‘weak’ eyes which could reduced with teamwork.

So Piggy is probably in the lead long term. I don’t know if at the moment anyone gains but yebellz if they work to go after piggy. Even then it might be hard to reduce piggy to four eyes.

Maybe yebellz and haze could make a deal to remove the orange stones. If it’s done early enough, maybe haze and yebellz can try make extra points on the bottom and bottom left.

I can’t imagine yebellz agreeing to capture say Haze if say leira and le_4tc decided to make peace and try that. Depending on how Haze captures the stones, they could still have an eyespace that could be attacked by 2-3 players.

If piggy didn’t have a clear lead, then maybe yebellz could just try save some of the dame between them and Leira as shared eyespace and help them not be captured by le_4tc and just wait out the game. I think maybe removing the orange stones and keeping Leira alive could be a ok strategy and maybe the D2 stone can become active.

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 23

PiggyStardust

@PiggyStardust

Ok I convinced Leira to let me help after yebellz warned me about not being too pushy since Leira was being very cautious.
In the end I was forced to give my reasons (that White’s expansion would threaten my supremacy), but I’m happy not to have to impose my medicine.

Am I?

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 24

yebellz

@yebellz

Haze’s move at J12 was a surprise to Leira, but Haze is trying to explain it as them simply doing what they thought was best on their own. I believe things will probably smooth over between these two, since, anyways, the move by le_4TC at L1 is unambiguously hostile to Haze, which should galvanize Haze and Leira against le_4TC.

I am suggesting to @PiggyStardust that we clear the orange stones with H2 and F5.

Below is the recent chat between @Leira, @Haze_with_a_Z, and @yebellz for your reading pleasure:

@Leira

@Haze_with_a_Z, can you explain your last move?

@Leira

As a clarification, I don’t mean it as an attack on you. Your move wasn’t detrimental, but I’m wondering what led you to such strategy (you purposefully skipped your first choice).

Has Piggy contacted you, perchance? He contacted me, and seems to be up to something.

@yebellz

When I first saw that move, I had assumed that Haze had coordinated with Leira for that, so it’s interesting to hear that was not the case.

Well, clearly, le_4TC’s backup move on L1 was vicious attack on Haze…

@Haze_with_a_Z

Basically I played there because I thought part of the reason for you to play there was to block le4. And I kinda thought you would collide again. So I blocked le4 from getting that space.

Also yeah I am gonna play in my area because I think I kinda need to with that last move. I don’t really think they will live in there, and orange is a bit of a sitting duck hopefully. Kinda dead but can theoretically become undead at any moment. And it can still be attached to me.

The last I heard from piggy was about samraku trying to kill me but like we were kinda already arguing in our corner. It was a few weeks ago I think. Actually, I just checked. That was from 19 days ago.

le_4TC

@le_4TC

For the Kibitz thread:

I just realized something about the position which is potentially very bad for me.

Let’s focus on the situation between @yebellz, @Leira and me (assume that @Haze_with_a_Z is alive in the bottom right, and that @PiggyStardust has no interest in helping to capture me or @Leira).

I reasoned earlier that @yebellz should want to capture @Leira eventually, to expand into that area. What I failed to take into account is that, especially now that @Leira has no internal eyes at all, @yebellz might be able to capture @Leira without my help.

(Well, as the board stands right now, @Leira has three liberties that are not accessible to @yebellz (K5, J10, H12). But it seems reasonable to assume that some of those will disappear soon. If there is only one such liberty left, @yebellz can fill in all the other shared liberties at their leisure, and then take the green stones off the board, without needing the help of any other player.)

This means that @yebellz does not mind if I’m eliminated from the game (when I have too few stones, in round 70 or something), as long as my stones are still alive on the board. By waiting to capture @Leira until after I’m eliminated, @yebellz will get all that area to themselves, instead of me claiming half of it (of course @Haze_with_a_Z might be involved too, but you get the idea).

So this is obviously bad news for me. Perhaps @yebellz has seen this coming for a long time, or they might not have thought about it yet. But it becomes more obvious with each move, so I’m in trouble regardless.

This is my initial idea on how to prevent this scenario: threaten @yebellz that if @Leira is not captured by a certain round, I will fill in my own eyes, allowing @Leira to capture me, and denying @yebellz any extra expansion into that area. This is a credible threat, since I would have nothing to lose at that point, and filling in my own eyes might even be the best way to stay in the game for as many rounds as possible. If @yebellz does believe my threat, then that brings the situation back to a choice between either me or @Leira getting captured, and between those two options @yebellz really should prefer capturing @Leira.

So I think that would work? I will have to think through this plan a bit more before saying anything to @yebellz. I need to make sure that @yebellz does not have any way of taking some of @Leira’s liberties, then stopping when there are 2 liberties left (so that I’m still unable to capture @Leira), forcing me to follow up on my threat of filling my own eyes, but managing to time it so that @Leira is captured and taken off the board once I have only one eye left. In this way, @yebellz could kill both of us and get all of the profits (or share the profit with @Haze_with_a_Z, who would be motivated to help with such a plan).

Tricky business!

[Vsotvep]

Kibitz logs for Round 25

yebellz

@yebellz

I have an idea of how I’m going roleplay in the next Diplomatic Go game…

Check this out, if you haven’t already:

Game of Thrones Intro Creator

[Gia]

Just so you know, the latest timestamp is wrong again.