Poor Manners

General Go Discussion
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Is there someone out there telling people to not resign in obvious losses. I have several players in which the game was not remotely close, but they pass. In some cases, they pass with “gaps.” I was told by a couple of them that some people (and I quote, “don’t like resigning.” What???

It is a lack of respect and poor etiquette to continue playing, much less to “pass” in-game that is lopsided.

I don’t know about anyone else, but this was one of the first lessons I was taught when I was first introduced to the game.

I know counting skills is a learned skill, so I would expect a higher kyu player to play longer than expected. I know in pro games they resign and I am like, “what?” bu then I count and realize, how he is down by 10. But, the issue here is people “passing” when it is obvious it sin;t worth counting. In these cases, the board is still open for more play, so the “pass” is resigning move, but without the courtesy of a resign. Plus, someone is telling them not to resign.

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Does it really matter @PikeStance if you still get the win?
@Eugene what about you do you think it matters?

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Your opponents have no obligation to you to resign when they are behind. In fact, some people consider resigning disrespectful when the game is almost finished (even when behind).

Passing to end the game is perfectly reasonable.

Don’t force your skewed ideals unto others please. I find that disrespectful.

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@PikeStance Sometimes when I know that I lost, before the person I am playing passes I resign. Other times though when they pass I pass too and I try to accept the game the right way, fast so the tournament game or ladder challenge or friendly match can end sooner.

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By the way, looking at the games you play, you’re almost exclusively playing opponents several stones weaker than you are. Actually, most of your opponents are DDK’s. You can’t really require them to be able to judge the result of a game as well as you can, now can you?

Games list

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And if this is the one of the first lessons you were taught, you had a bad teacher. Judging a game is one of the most difficult skills to learn as a beginner. You need to have knowledge of territory, influence, life and death and furthermore be able to count accurately before you can see if you’re losing or winning in midgame.

I remember several times being completely surprised that I was 30 points ahead / behind in games I played as a DDK. As well as resigning games where I was actually ahead according to AI.

If I would teach a beginner, the first advice I give them is to actually continue the game until it’s completely finished. That way they can learn how to properly enclose their territory, not to play wasted moves in endgame, etc.

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I have a hunch the post is related to the specifically the last game as it usually is. I’ll address this specific case (not looking at the other games).

Ok, so what happened in the last game is you played much weaker opponent with handicap on 13x13 board, 10 min absolute (as I understand you accepted the game).

In the game you quickly got a big lead and naturally expected opponent to resign at some point but they chose to play to the end. And I get it, that can be annoying.

You then proceeded to finish the game without any communication. Then your opponent passed because the game is finished. You refused to pass and continued to play the moves after the game is finished to get your opponent to resign. And expressed your frustration verbally in chat and now wrote this post.

So yeah, a weaker player doesn’t resign. It can be a little frustrating sometimes. It’s entirely reasonable to write something like “the game is basically over” or “there’s no real reason to continue playing here” to indicate to your opponent that they should resign, or maybe even flat out write “you should resign here”. That’s the burden of stronger player - to teach weaker players (including good manners) when playing them.

Your response in that game seems unreasonable. You seem ok with playing out (and it’s a small board, short time control, many would be ok with finishing it) because you didn’t say anything early on. Then when your opponent passes to finish it you refuse and contiue playing. At that point it’s you who is wasting time and not your opponent. Plus when you write in chat you use a little bit rude language.

[18:00] Flying Pink Panther[4k]: only imbecile would have a problem with it
[18:01] Flying Pink Panther[4k]: Do some reading, I am right

Like this you’re indirectly hinting that your opponent is an imbecile and it’s kind of condescending in my opinion.

That’s why in this particular case you seem more like an unreasonable person than your opponent. You didn’t mitigate the conflict but inflated it.

It’s very important to teach people good manners. But when you act unreasonable they aren’t going to learn because they’re going to dismiss your opinion. I suggest softer language, positive attitude, positive words.

If you have a short fuse I’d suggest playing stronger players, players you know, etc.

Hope this helps.

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I also agree with everyone here that you don’t need to resign.

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Far be it for me to jump on the bandwaggon here and say anything with any real authority.

But, having read everything above, it is clear to me that the person who has rude manners is, in fact, you @PikeStance.

As the stronger player it is your role, in this community of ours, to educate, and to be the person that is patient with weaker players, so that they can learn properly to observe good manners in game. You have flouted this, and worse, you have come here to seek to gain some form of approval for what i can see, is appaling behaviour.

I suggest gently that if this is a continued problem for you, that you need to change your perspective on the matter, and play stronger players, if indeed, weaker players are so “Rude” or “Aggrivating” to you.

I do appologise if my words come off harsh, they are meant to, but at the same time, i also recognise that this isnt the sort of community that we should be trying to build, one where we become angry so quickly, at such small thigns. I love OGS, and all the memebers of the community, that we have built together… it angers me that people would go out of their way to bring dissrepute, and dishonour on to us in such a meaningless way.

That being said… i believe it is time to drop the subject, and indeed, to close this thread to further responses.

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I knew this username was familiar to me. You are the author of this thread:

It seems that rudeness is a concern to you; however, as it is been pointed out, that someone does not follow your particular expectations does not mean that they are being rude. I bring this up because your old thread seems equally relevant now than it was back then.

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Oh… wouldn’t ya know, i commented on that thread too. And its more of the same nonsense. Except, this time, insted of a chat probelm, its a problem with how poeple play the game. This comes as no real surprise to me at this point.

I lament, I really, really do.

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This is the key phrase, right there.

(About the actual matter, there was a relevant thread a while ago. There was not a general consensus about passing/ resigning, IIRC, but it’s generally agreed that strong players are expected to either guide (very honorable, thank you for the game) or kill and leave (very understandable, also thank you for the game) . Rubbing it in is not an option.)

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The username was PikeStance back then, the profile image is probably what you remembered.

Or perhaps it’s the astounding hypocrisy that is memorable.

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Under Japanese rules what’s the aim of capturing dead stones?
And from a largely winning position what’s the aim of invading that corner ?
And why refuse to count score when the opponent passes?

I have just one word for that behaviour and it’s way worse than “poor manners”.

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In the referenced game, had black reported white for timewasting, white would have been cautioned about that, and asked to pass when the opponent did in the future.

Continuing play after the pass at move 132 was pure timewasting on the part of white, who clearly knows he has won (since he says so in the head post).

Nobody is obliged to resign at any time.

What you are obliged to do is pass if your opponent passes and you don’t have a genuine opportunity to improve your chance of winning. Continuing to play past that point is timewasting, and is discouraged at OGS.

Note that what “is” and what “is not” timewasting is a judgement call, where plenty of leniency and room for explaining is applied. In this case though, all white’s play past move 132 was hard-to-understand time-wasting, given that white had won anyhow.

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When I was first learning the game I played someone who was a shodan. Long before the game was “over.” he would always stop and then review the game. it was through him and others I was introduced to the idea that if you are far behind, it is respectful to resign. You shouldn’t “force” your opponent to continue playing where you are mathematically impossible to win. This lesson was taught to me repeatedly by players far stronger than I. This behavior is also demonstrated by professional as well. it is part of the etiquette of the game. This point is also address in various books on Go.

Is there really a point in pummeling your opponent? I can’t imagine why anyone would be upset with anyone resigning the game, but yet this is communicated to me repeatedly by players. I am trying to educate them on proper etiquette and someone else is insisting on pummeling them. And to be perfectly clear, I have had players request to continue playing the game to complete the "end game: and had no problem with that. The issue isn;t not resigning. It is some dope insisting that people “do not resign.!” That’s plain wrong. No one should be forced into submission in such an obnoxious manner especially when the etiquette says otherwise. So my friend, you have my point completely wrong. It isn;t me insisting they resign, the issue is other people insisting that they don’t!

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I stand by my statement that is unreasonable for any player to insist a player does not resign. that he must play out.

You have taken my comments out of context. I had already asked why he didn’t resign. He told me that passed. I then told him he needs to read up on the game in the hopes he would read about proper etiquette. He then told me that "damn if do and damn if don’t. I then told him those people flat out wrong. There is nothing wrong with resigning. if you want to rad some sort of nastiness in my comment, I supposed you could do that, but it was never written in that context. That being aid, this isn’t about “me” but about the people who are insisting that people get creamed because they can’t resign. That is wrong!

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I like how every time I bring a valid point, I personally get attacked.

The point I making isn’t that people should resign, it is that people are telling players NOT to resign. People would naturally resign if they felt like they were not being attacked. This isn’t the first person that told me this crap. A player has the right when the game is no longer in doubt to resign. Period.

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This much is definitely true.

A player who can see that they have definitely lost has the right to resign.

However they are in no way obliged to resign. There are numerous reasons why a player may prefer to keep playing when it appears that they have lost.

What you are obliged to do is pass when your opponent passes at the end of the game, when there is no gain to be had from playing on.

What you are also obliged not to do is hassle your opponent to resign. They are perfectly entitled to continue playing until you pass. It is not “poor manners” to do that, even if it is frustrating for you when you can see they have lost.

In the game in question, the only “poor manners” were hassling the opponent about not resigning, and continuing to play after they passed.

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Are you purposely altering my point? This isn’t about me. Stop going off topic.
I stated from the very beginning the issue is that the player told me that other players told him that resigning was the wrong thing to do. This is the point I am making.

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Sorry about ruffling feathers. I supposed people just want to beat up on opponent by intimidating them from resigning. Shame on you for supporting this behavior.

I should leave it at that, but If i did, I would be as guilty as those that made this issue about something else, including the “moderator.” It wasn’t your point, but now you can feel the hostility I have faced. Its ok, cyber bullies don’t bother me.

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