The neverending story uhuhu uhuhu uhuhu


#1

[ soundtrack by Limahl :smiley: ]

We are very near the end of second round in two tournaments I subscribed about one year ago.

Here they are:


As someone told in some other thread, having a “weekly” tournament that lasts more than a year is quite confusing. I didn’t know when I subscribed. Now I do! :slight_smile:

To celebrate the (near?) end of second round and start of third (which is the last one, hooray!) I baked some pies. :smiley:

Only about 63% players manage to pass a round. We already had 126 disqualified players out of 223.
Just 88 players out of 223 survived 'til now.
We also had few players who intentionally left.

I can’t wait to see the start of third round and how many players will resign all of their games immediately (it already happened in previous rounds).

I think I’ll never subscribe one of these tournaments anymore, but I dont’ want to quit. I’ll be there 'til the end!!! :smiley:
(I prepared a green slice for survivors: it must be filled out)


#2

Neat. :slight_smile:
One of the longest-running tourneys sports following distribution:
Signups: 31, Round 6/6
Competing: 7 (22%)
Resigned: 4 (13%)
DQ’d: 20 (65%)

The current Meijin Nines (started on March 1st) looks like this:
Signups: 95, Round 2/3
Competing: 53 (56%)
Resigned: 4 (4%)
DQ’d: 38 (40%)

This leads me to believe that a live tournament could hardly fare worse in terms of finishes. :slight_smile:
Compare these numbers to the last big live tournaments, exhibit A and exhibit B. The former was blitz 9x9 double elimination, granted, but 171 participants, 11 rounds, 90 minutes total… that’s pretty promising. Elimination seems to be the way to keep tournament duration limited.

The latter was a large McMahon 9x9 with 40 participants, 19 finishes (48%), 2 resignations (4%) and 19 DQs (48%), lasted 40 minutes.

The longest big (91 participants) live tourney I could find was the summer tournament, which lasted about 21 hours (7 rounds, adds up to main time +komi exactly so most games probably just timed out). That is definitely too long for a live tournament - 2hrs main time + generous 12x5min byo yomi.


#3

/me curses you for that earworm now … how can i get it out again? Should I rickroll myself? Last Christmas? Dammit.

<just kidding> :wink:


#4

Seems pretty normal. Because players get DQ for just one timeout, mcmahon tourneys with large groups tend to have large number of dropouts.
Based on my own corr experience, i have a feeling is that usually ~half the players won’t get past first round.


#5

Atemlos? ;D


#6

Maybe round 6/10?

This reminds me of another tourney I’m participating:

Nine rounds, now playing round 3, 64 signups, 15 competing now.
How long will it last?
How many will reach the goal?


#7

I think the default correspondence setting of +1 day per move is too high. Maybe +12 hr or less should be experimented with at a larger scale (like in the automatic site-wide tournaments, maybe the ladders, instead of just the fast correspondence group tournaments).

A popular argument against what I am suggesting above is that reducing the increment would prohibit some slower players from being able to participate. However, with the current slow settings (where each game could easily last 6 months or more), tournaments dragging on too long could be discouraging players from participating as well. The attrition rate statistics shown in the original post seem to suggest that this is happening.


#8

Damn, you’re right. 6/10. There is probably a more macabre category we should add to that one.
Still alive: _ … :flushed:


#9

Just call them endurance tournaments :slight_smile:


#10

I don’t have a horse in this fight, but I want to point out that it is not just “slower” players who would be unable to participate. Although 12-hour increments may be fine for students (who do seem most numerous on OGS), many older players with full schedules might find it impossible to play a move every 12 hours. In my own case, I’m up at 4 a.m., at work by 6:15, and rarely home before 4 p.m., and there is no possibility of playing in that 12-hour period. I imagine that many other working adults here have a similarly demanding job and/or substantial family responsibilities. Not complainin’, just sayin’.


#11

With Fischer +12h, you would still be fine as long as you are able to play 2 moves in 24 hours. Of course, if you are unlucky and draw an opponent with “opposite” schedule of you, so that he doesn’t make any moves while you have time to play, you will still be in trouble (unless you are able to “catch-up” by playing more over the weekend).

I played quite a few chess tournaments before, and usually, 94 out of 100 finished their games in two weeks, then the remaining 6 took 6 months. Annoying as h***. But on chess.com, they kept track of “average time between moves” for all players (tracked per game, so it doesn’t lower just because you have many games), and when setting up a tournament, you could restrict it to only allow players with a certain playing speed (e.g. average time between moves < 6 hours).

Not sure if that is possible here, but it was very useful for setting up fast tournaments as you then only get players that actually plays fast, and it sped up the tournaments immensely. I think rounds of < 2 months could be possible then.


#12

Currently on round 5/3 xD


#13

Finally it comes to an end

I looked up how long the automatic sitewide and title tournaments last:

Timesettings

Title tournaments: 7d + 1d up to 7d
Automatic sidewide tournaments: 3d + 1d up to 3d (pause on weekend)

Duration of the tournaments

duration title tournaments automatic sidewide tournaments
fastest 679 days 318 days
25% ended within 905 days 496 days
50% ended within 946 days 566 days
75% ended within 1112 days 657 days
longest ended after 1936 days 825 days

19 title and 64 automatic tournaments

Duration of games

including timeouts

percent ended within title tournaments automatic sitewide tournaments
25% 13 days 7 days
50% 45 days 24 days
75% 93 days 53 days
90% 146 days 90 days
95% 180 days 116 days
99% 251 days 176 days
100% 514 days 346 days

33687 games in title tournaments and 32394 games in automatic sitewide tournaments.

without timeouts

percent ended within title tournaments automatic sitewide tournaments
25% 38 days 12 days
50% 72 days 30 days
75% 119 days 62 days
90% 171 days 100 days
95% 203 days 128 days
99% 276 days 187 days
100% 514 days 346 days

17546 games in title tournaments and 18716 games in automatic sitewide tournaments.

median duration per player

including timeouts

percent end their games on average after title tournaments automatic sitewide tournaments
25% 14 days 9 days
50% 37 days 21 days
75% 61 days 37 days
90% 87 days 54 days
95% 104 days 70 days
99% 145 days 103 days
100% 210 days 154 days

In title tournaments participated 1538 different players, in automatic sitewide tournaments 1882 players. Of them 268 players participated in both tournament forms.

And just for completeness the difference in speed for the 268 players of both tournaments (someone would ask for it anyway):

percent players (title tournament median) - (automatic tournaments median)
0% -85 days
25% 2 days
50% 14 days
75% 31 days
90% 49 days
95% 61 days
100% 129 days

without timeouts

percent end their games on average after title tournaments automatic sitewide tournaments
25% 38 days 14 days
50% 62 days 28 days
75% 91 days 48 days
90% 122 days 70 days
95% 146 days 90 days
99% 186 days 142 days
100% 254 days 207 days

In title tournaments participated (at least 1 game ended without timeout) 1244 different players, in automatic sitewide tournaments 1569 players. Of them 230 players participated in both tournament forms.

And just for completeness the difference in speed for the 230 players of both tournaments (someone would ask for it anyway):

percent players (title tournament median) - (automatic tournaments median)
0% -97 days
25% 6 days
50% 21 days
75% 39 days
90% 62 days
100% 200 days

Tournaments in my sample

Honinbo Main Title Tournament 2011 | 946 days
Tianyuan Main Title Tournament 2011 | 913 days
Alan Turing Main Title Tournament 2011 | 944 days
Meijin Main Title Tournament 2012 | 819 days
Honinbo Main Title Tournament 2012 | 905 days
Mingren Main Title Tournament 2012 | 792 days
Tianyuan Main Title Tournament 2012 | 932 days
Alan Turing Main Title Tournament 2012 | 1936 days
Meijin Main Title Tournament 2013 | 679 days
Honinbo Main Title Tournament 2013 | 1008 days
Mingren Main Title Tournament 2013 | 882 days
Tianyuan Main Title Tournament 2013 | 1054 days
Meijin Main Title Tournament 2014 | 1151 days
Honinbo Main Title Tournament 2014 | 1447 days
Tianyuan Main Title Tournament 2014 | 952 days
Honinbo Main Title Tournament 2015 | 1037 days
Meijin Main Title Tournament 2015 | 1112 days
Mingren Main Title Tournament 2014 | 943 days
Alan Turing Main Title Tournament 2015 | 1143 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-01-16 17:00 | 318 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-01-23 17:00 | 656 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-01-30 17:00 | 750 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-02-16 17:00 | 766 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-02-06 17:00 | 705 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-02-13 17:00 | 395 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-02-20 17:00 | 449 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-02-27 17:00 | 643 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-03-05 17:00 | 566 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-03-16 17:00 | 625 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-03-12 17:00 | 463 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-03-19 17:00 | 583 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-03-26 17:00 | 517 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-04-02 17:00 | 537 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-04-16 17:00 | 755 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-04-09 17:00 | 558 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-04-16 17:00 | 444 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-04-23 17:00 | 622 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-04-30 17:00 | 510 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-05-16 17:00 | 611 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-05-07 17:00 | 602 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-05-14 17:00 | 673 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-05-21 17:00 | 566 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-05-28 17:00 | 651 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-06-04 17:00 | 803 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-06-16 17:00 | 825 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-06-18 17:00 | 584 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-07-02 17:00 | 793 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-07-16 17:00 | 724 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-07-09 17:00 | 725 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-07-23 17:00 | 657 days
Monthly Simultaneous McMahon 2016-08-16 17:00 | 724 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-08-06 17:00 | 621 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-08-13 17:00 | 673 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-08-27 17:00 | 660 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-09-03 17:00 | 668 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-09-10 17:00 | 677 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-09-17 17:00 | 508 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-09-24 17:00 | 631 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-10-01 17:00 | 587 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-10-08 17:00 | 489 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-10-15 17:00 | 539 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-10-22 17:00 | 504 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-10-29 17:00 | 501 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-11-05 17:00 | 527 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-11-12 17:00 | 544 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-11-19 17:00 | 490 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-11-26 17:00 | 552 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-12-03 17:00 | 633 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-12-10 17:00 | 578 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-12-17 17:00 | 449 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-12-24 17:00 | 497 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2016-12-31 17:00 | 458 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-01-07 17:00 | 455 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-01-14 17:00 | 530 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-01-28 17:00 | 496 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-02-04 17:00 | 491 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-02-11 17:00 | 423 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-02-25 17:00 | 544 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-03-04 17:00 | 496 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-03-11 17:00 | 461 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-04-01 17:00 | 530 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-05-06 17:00 | 433 days
Correspondence Weekly McMahon 19x19 2017-05-13 17:00 | 402 days


#14

Surprising to see that title tournament games take so much longer on average in spite of forcing a higher minimum speed (7 moves per week instead of 5 per week). It seems that the larger buffer is used a lot more than I would have thought. (My assumption basically was that the slowest payers would basically always move with only 1 day or less time left, in which case the max. time of the time buffer would be irrelevant. It clearly isn’t though.


#15

Shameless plug: Tournament Timeframe


#16

Another one just ended. Rest in peace.


#17

Is anyone honestly surprised that a swiss 19x19 tournament takes that long? If anything, I’d expect longer. Assuming that one game goes to 200 moves, once per round, at a speed of 2 moves/day, the tournament would take over four years to complete…


#18

I’m just waiting for a round robin tourney with 100 participants. :scream:


#19

12 rounds in less than 3 years, that’s quick if you ask me.

BTW: Where do you see how many rounds a swiss tournament will have?


#20

you use a calculator :wink:

Btw: This formula seems dangerous for large tournaments. For a tournament with 100 players, one get over 20 rounds. I expected something logarithmic before I found the formula.